Amal Dokhan is a venture capitalist, entrepreneurship advocate, and ecosystem builder with over a decade of experience in MENA. She is the Managing Partner at 500 Global, leading the Sanabil 500 MENA seed accelerator fund for early-stage tech startups.
Previously, she managed accelerator and corporate innovation programs at KAUST and contributed to government SME initiatives.
Amal serves on the boards of Saudi's VC & Private Equity Association and the Middle East VC Association (UAE). She's a Kauffman Fellow, and was named one of Forbes' Most Powerful Women in the Middle East in 2023 & 2024.
Contact Links
Amal’s LinkedIn account: @Amal Dokhan
500 Global’s Website: https://500.co/
Transcript:
Ali Zewail: Welcome to the Startups Arabia podcast. My guest today with that steaming coffee in front of her is Amal Dokhan. She's the managing partner of 500 MENA. And I'm really excited to get this conversation going because Amal over the last decade or a little more has had an incredible impact on the Saudi startup ecosystem in general. And of course, with 500 being an active investor in the whole MENA region, in terms of number of deals. I'm sure she's seen a lot and it's going to be a really fun conversation. Welcome, Amal.
Amal Dokhan: Thankyou for hosting me and I'm looking forward to it.Ali Zewail: Yeah, metoo. Uh, all right, Amal, there's just so much you've accomplished over theyears. So I was like, wondering where to start the conversation and, um, youknow, which entry point we should take. And I thought that, A good point wouldbe the year 2013 because it seems to me that that was kind of a turning pointin your life where you had maybe had a career in different directions and trieddifferent things, but it was 2013 that you really focused and zeroed in onstartups as where you want to make an impact.So tell me more about that. It'sAmal Dokhan:interesting that you've pointed out 2013. It's, it's a number that I normallysay when people ask about my background, obviously. Um, what you justhighlighted is quite true. You know, I've worked in different sectors, youknow, that has nothing to do with the financial sector or the investmentinitially, because I graduated college in 1999 and I've been working for quitesome time, you know, education.I've done a little bit of services and consultancy. Bit ofmarketing started my own company at some point, but I think, you know, maybewhat led to 2013 shift is when I went to do my master's degree in strategicmarketing and I started a company with a friend and honestly, that world wasquite intriguing.And as you know, those were the early days of venture, youknow, very few ones have started before very few VCs existed at that time. Soit was not like a common knowledge that you would walk around and you hear.Somebody's building a startup, or there is something called a venture capital.Or what does that even mean?And when I started my master's, it was really the talk of, youknow, of what's happening, you know, while studying. And I was so intriguedabout this world. You know, I know about corporations. I know about productsand all of this stuff, but I've never thought that this is something that isthat accessible for anyone to start, you know, to do.Easily, especially with the use of technology. And I thinkduring that time I got to explore more, what does venture mean? And part of itis like being part of a tech company myself, seeing, you know, the hustles andthe struggles of building the technology. What do we need to do? Who is thepartner?Developer who's going to do that? How are we going to findsomeone, you know, and getting that to the market? Should we build, you know,as many services and products first before we bring it to the market? Or shallwe, you know, what we were talking about, the minimum viable product. And thatwas not really in the minds of people, because everyone wanted to bringsomething perfect, especially if it's new.So all these questions were actually intriguing. And part of mystudies was a focus on consumer behavior. Yeah. And, oh my God, what a lifechanging knowledge when I started to dig deeper, you know, towards consumers,understanding behavior, what does it mean to know what people think and feel,and how can I design products for that?So honestly, this was the start when I started to read more andmore about that. 2013 is the time where I joined King Abdullah University ofScience and Technology, and I joined the seed fund department. And You know,I'm not really ashamed of saying that when I joined, I didn't know what toexpect, joining an R& D university of lots of deep tech and technologiesthat were built in the lab.And when I was going through the website, as I applied to thejob, it was all talking about clean technologies, you know, solar, biotech, um,you know, building membranes for water desalination. And I'm like, justresearching and researching and feeling terrified of this world. And how am Igoing to survive, you know, over there?When I got the job, it's, and I moved to actually KAUST and Istarted to meet these people and honestly, you know, the, I would say that thelearning curve and the will and the drive to do that was at its peak in mymind, I was just under that adrenaline rush of understanding all thesetechnologies, what is it doing globally?What is the impact in the region? Why this is happening? AndI'm almost as if somebody gave me that, you know, injection, it was right intothe brain and. Like the rollercoaster started. And those are people that areworking in the lab. I can see them. I see Aramco at the corner, the researchcenter. I see Boeing here and I see Sabic here and I'm like, things arehappening.And honestly, the realization was like, yes, it was amazingwhat I've done before, but where was I, you know, from this world, this iswhere I felt the fit towards, you know, supporting founders, the buildup. Whatdoes it mean to bring a product to a company? What does that journey look like?Meeting these people, especially talking deep technology in 2013, you know,that's almost like in the region was not that much of heard of, right?You will see all the people that are building these types oftechnologies going abroad. They don't fundraise in the region. They don't buildin the region. And they were some of the best slaps, you know, at KAUST, youknow, still until today. And they're attracting all these people to come andbuild and possibly give it to these companies.So you can imagine the impact of me going through that and thefast learning. I have no time to waste. excitement. And I have no time towaste. I have no time to say, I don't know. I have no time to say I'm not goingto be able to help or any of that. I'm going to find a way. I'm just going toget it done.And I was wired in that period of time to just help. And as I'mdoing this, I'm learning more and more about startups, meeting more founderscoming from abroad, people that I travel and I see. And at that time, Uh, ideaused to go a lot, you know, to Egypt, you know, and to the Greek campus, youknow, meeting people there where the company's happening.Turkey, there was thought of Istanbul. You'll see a lot of methere meeting companies, YC, TechCrunch, all of these, you know, players comingthere and, you know, and then going to Lebanon and MIT Enterprise Forum,Jordan, Tunis, Morocco. And then suddenly I'm in the midst of something that Idid not see my life turning into and I had to really teach myself fast andreally do it.I had to be part of the building. I cannot be just someonewho's saying, you know, I know startups without actually being part of astartup as well. Although when I was in the masters, I was doing somethingsimilar. It just didn't work. didn't click in my mind, to be honest. Um, andthat's how I got into this whole world.That's why 2013 was quite an exciting year. And then a coupleof years later, I had the opportunity, I was selected to join a program calledREAP at MIT Sloan. It's regional acceleration, you know, program. And it wasabout building a project in your hometown, but attending, you know, courses,and it's a two years program.And going there, it was almost like, you know, the East and theWest and comparing where are we doing? What are they doing? You know, is therea way that we can go ahead of the curve? And it was so exciting and sointimidating at the same time, but I was just like, I'm there to come back anddo it. And maybe that's where things started.When I went there, when I got to know people, I knew all thebeginnings, you know, known companies that I've met, founders, the people, theecosystem players, you know, between, you know, Stanford and between MIT. Andmaybe you can see me bringing a lot of academia here, but I think everyone hasa lot of starting points and people were lucky to be in the heart of thestartups.I was lucky to be hard to, you know, in the heart of theecosystems itself and the builders and what are the components and the layersthat are needed. And it just got me more excited to learn more. And how do welocalize that? And I think if. I would say anything about my journey. It'sabout how do I bring this, but it has to make sense for here.It has to be not a coffee paste, you know, for what's happeningthere. And that was the reason, you know, why I would go and see, you know,what's happening. I finished obviously my reprogram and I signed up to more. SoI got a diploma in strategy, innovation, and entrepreneurship. And I wasspending my time at the trust center, you know, with Bell Olit and others, justmeeting startups, attending these workshops.Talking to the VCs there. So again, think of all of thosewiring. And when I think back, you know, I remember I was like in a differentkind of, uh, level in terms of thinking. And then a year later, I went toStanford to attend the design thinking school at Hasselblad Plattner Institute.Another, another jump about everything can be designed.If we just know the problem and have all what it takes of allthese pieces, it doesn't have to be perfect. There's always experimentation andwe can build a program, we can build an ecosystem, we can build a product, wecan build a company. And I think that mindset just brought me back as a personwho can see a framework, you know, of the build.And I think there's nothing that I can hear today that will notmake sense to me. for a technology or for anything. And I got high exposure toa lot of stuff in a very short period of time. Um, and honestly, if I, ifthere's something that I would say, it's just the rest is history, you know,after that, because I started investing and angel investing in small companiesand I started to be more involved.We started the first accelerator in, uh, King AbdullahUniversity of Science and Technology was called 910. And then after that, theQaddam, which is still running until today, but it was a grant based and it waswell needed at that time to actually show the possibilities with a little bitof support to move the ecosystem.And one of the things I remember at that time when we wanted toregister, for example, foreign companies. And, uh, how would that actuallyhappen? It wasn't something that is common. It was not, you know, an easything. As you know, the regulation used to be that you have to be a Saudinational, you have to do this and that.And I remember because of the nature of the companies, we wereall able to lobby with Sagia back in the days. It was not a ministry. It wasjust a service. an authority that is in charge of investment. Exactly. And welobbied with them to create the first CRs and all of this stuff. And I thinkwithout getting into, you know, more details, it was, I almost have seen howthe region have shifted, you know, over a decade or 12 years, maybe, you know,of time.And, um, Now I can see how things make sense, you know, interms of where we are in, in the cycle and how things are evolving. Andespecially in Saudi Arabia, you know, it's, you see things happening in acertain unique way as well in terms of development for investment. But, uh, butyeah, man, it was, it's quite a journey.You're bringing me back to quite an interesting tape ofthoughts.Ali Zewail: It is,uh, like there are so many strings I could pull on, uh, from that, uh, journey.Including your background, education and, uh, also the design thing as well.But maybe I'll start with the general first and then, uh, go to the personal.So, I mean, KAUST, it's a university of science, technology, et cetera.I mean, what was the thinking behind their like deep dive intoentrepreneurship and, you know, uh, working on something, you know, building,uh, an ecosystem for entrepreneurship and stuff like that.Amal Dokhan: soyou'll have to know how, what is the reasoning of creating King Abdullah ofsunset technology. So You know, the latest King Abdullah had a vision aboutcreating a beacon of research, you know, that is highly situated in the kingdomto impact, you know, the rest, not just the region, the globe as well. And itwas a dream.That was the dream of a king of like to create this uniquespot. How do we create this spot? How do we bring the best minds to bring themto the kingdom at that time? How do we offer them the best life? How do we makethem come and create their innovation? So it was highly based on innovation,highly based on, you know, solving bigger problems than any other, you know,You know, smaller kind of usual problems that you actually see in an innovativeway in a highly unique matter.That's why you see a tech transfer office is part part of, youknow, the university, which is in charge of, like, creating a licensing IPs. Ithas a low team, basically with a bunch of low firms and a lot of people thatare in charge of just making sure that these are done in the right way. Andthese technologies are registered, you know, and protected.based on the nature and the sector commercially. And then theultimate goal is like, how do we bring the people? So then the idea of thecampus came of like, we create a campus that allows people, what brings people,well, they need actually, besides the education and the best equipments aroundthe globe, like the biggest and the fastest, highest computing, you know, kindof power actually existing cows.You know, the region exactly as an infrastructure, the bestlab. So they created the strong infrastructure, then they created an almost aliving place. So there's houses, there's facilities and all of these stuff. Andthen there was the vision of I'll connect you to all these corporates. And Iwill actually collaborate with the global, uh, best universities to allow forthis research to happen.And that's how it actually was created. So it was built on abase of innovation and you're talking about the sort of like. cast around 2009,you know, at the beginning, 2009, 2010, when I joined, it was 2013. And therewas part of the university was called the economic development department. Andthe economic development was all about, you know, building those relationshipsand strengths with the corporates.There was a research part. And on the other hand, it was abouthow do we commercialize all this research that happens? And you know, this is aglobal problem. You know, there's a lot of research. doesn't make it to themarket. All these brilliant minds, a lot of amazing, you know, budgets that arebeing spent.So when we joined, there was already a seed program when Ijoined and it was giving grants to, to researchers, uh, around 250 Ks at thattime to help them commercialize. But you know what? It's just, there'ssomething, you know, we have to admit. that being a researcher and a scientist,you want to continue developing in the lab, you want to do more science.You want to do and create more research as the nature of whatyou do and what you have been studying. You've been great at, and the chancesthat you will have a researchers that will convert to a CEO and be able to doboth. It's actually hard, but it happens. It happens globally. And I think whenI came and we looked at the program, it was like, What do we need to bringmore?And it was about the know how and the mindset ofentrepreneurship, because research alone will not make it, you know, tocommercialization. But if I have research, you know, I understand what problemsthat do exist in the industry. And we were not looking at consumer problems. Wewere looking at industry problems.You know, I'll give you a very quick example. You know, um, Anoil pipe, you know, where actually things cannot stop and there could besometimes problems to be inspected. They need to shut it down from end to endin order to resolve. That is a lot of inefficiencies, wasted money. There was acreation of a robot that actually can go and has the sensors and detect on allof this stuff.There is a lot of experiments that needs to be done in order tobuild something like this. So these are the type of stuff that we used to lookat. And the difficult part is like inspecting and finding out if I'm workingwith the big corporations that does oil and gas, what are the processes,compliances, and all of these stuff.So then we thought of the accelerator. Let us create a programthat will allow these minds to come with their own products, right? Or anon-product. But the thinking of a problem, and let's work on the mindset shiftand. When I say mindset shift, it's not about saying what you were doing isbad. This is about telling you how others have done it, you know, in a fasterway.So we looked at so many programs to learn from. We looked at UCBerkeley. We looked at so many other universities of like what creativeprograms that accelerated, you know, deep technologies towards bringing them tothe market. And here we started to learn a lot. There was an eye opening momentwhere we were like, yeah, maybe we need to do this because getting a scientistfrom the lab was difficult.You know, they're there to do a job. So we had to do it atnight. So we started by sessions at night and then we started to adopt inweekends. Then we started to talk to the PIs and so there was a lot of thingsthat, and lobbying that we had to do. And that's why maybe the ecosystem piecegoes dear to my heart because it's not just about the product.It's not about the service. This is about understanding all theplayers and doing a lot of stakeholder management and a lot of alignmentbecause everyone is trying to do good in their own. And I think this is thebiggest problem in any ecosystem that we can talk about. Today, here,especially in the region, like everybody's trying to do their own initiativesand everything, you know, and at the end of the day, how do we get as many aspossible, if it makes sense.So you do have a response. And I feel we have a responsibilitywhen we see alignments to actually go forward and talk and create initiatives.And at that time, the accelerator was the best solution, to be honest, youknow, for us. And that's how we started the first one.Ali Zewail: Yeah.Interesting. And, um, all right. Um, I'm going to jump, uh, to the present day,so to speak. And can you tell us more about 500 MENA? I mean, what is yourfocus? What is different, um, for 500 MENA versus other versus a global vision,or is it basically the same thing and the different entities in 500 MENA?Amal Dokhan: yeah,yeah, So 500 in general, as you'd know, they actually come into emergingmarkets really early. And the idea is to come as early as possible to be partof the fabric of the ecosystem, to be part of the community, to be part of thecreation mode itself. That's why 500 is very big on community activities andlike being present, being seen most of the time and bringing founders andinvestors together.Like we have so many signature events that we run. Like nextweek we have our own FII actually. I'm like, not next week anymore. So it'sactually in a couple of days, we're doing an FII gathering for investors,founders, and any visitor who's coming from outside and it's the futureinvestment initiative week in Riyadh.So it's a very, very, very busy week from a lot of peoplecoming from all around the globe. So we do. You know, build on these kind of,uh, events on the side where we can actually leverage, you know, the value ofthe founders. So going back to your question, um, every, I think, region likeLatin, Southeast Asia, you know, Korea and, you know, different parts of the,what this did, the Turkey one, there's a chapter in Egypt as well.So, Every, actually, uh, region has its own people. So 500works with local GPs. And those GPs basically have the know how about the stageand about what is happening in the region at that time, and what could be thebest approach to start, and what are the complementary things that we can buildon, and who should we work with, what sort of stage should we focus on.So I would say that the DNA of 500 definitely remains, youknow, in all of, you know, You know, the countries, but there are differentways of doing it. So the way we run our program could be slightly differentthan what's being run, you know, in San Francisco, then others may have reducedthe accelerating component and they started to focus more on later stage.So the one in Mina, uh, you know, as you know, we had a fundcalled Falcons in 2017 and invested in so many amazing companies, like thereis, you know, Most of them now in series B and series C. So, so we see thesuccess of the previous vintage, you know, in 500. And then we started in 2021.Uh, and the 21 start was slightly different is.where we needed to utilize and have a presence this time. So itwas not just the fund, you know, and having people know there will be aphysical presence in the region where we can run the programs in a much moreperiodical kind of approach with a dedicated fund to this accelerator. And hereis where Sanabel 500 Minaseed Accelerator Fund was created.Um, and there is a reason why it carries the Sanabel name, youknow, under, uh, the fund. So. As you know, 500 runs, you know, funds that arededicated mostly for accelerator programs. And I'll explain more about theprogram. Uh, but this particular fund has also, um, you know, the main mandateis the accelerator, but we do have a direct, uh, you know, mandate as well.Meaning we could invest in companies without. putting them inthe accelerator program. So we do assess if we feel that the program will addvalue, then definitely we will tell the founder, you know, we see a great fit.And then if it's not, then maybe it's better in that time and in that journeyfor the company that they continue the building, you know, and not be part ofthe program because they have joined others that there could be so many reasonswhy they don't do it.And the program runs in Riyadh and It's actually a 12 weeksprogram with two weeks at the beginning in person. We call them the foundationand two last weeks, which we call them the investment ones. Who joins theaccelerator? Uh, it's actually open for a cross that we still invest in preseed and seed.So we don't invest in series A. So anything, any kind of earlystage is our sweet spot of investment.We remain to be second. in the accelerator and in the directones as well. We've done, out of the previous, the previous fund, we've doneabout a couple of series A's, but in the second fund, which we closed now, uh,for this year, for 2024.So we're in fund two now. Uh, we actually do not do series Abecause 500, uh, has another, uh, You know, kind of, uh, a fund that should belaunched also soon that will tackle this, this day. So our job will remain incultivating seed stage companies. And, uh, we've invested in more than 119companies across, you know, uh, the portfolio since we started, uh, we remainto be sector agnostic.Um, uh, the only thing that I would tell founders, we're happyto look at, you know, the different sectors and the different kind of pauseswe've done. a little bit of like some of the companies that may seem to be, youknow, a little bit of different than the rest of the portfolio. But, uh, but Ithink it's about assessing the stage of the company, the founder's commitment,the problem, the relevance to Middle East and North Africa.So we mandate that these people are actually here. Um, andbasically this is how we're doing it. And then there's other layers. So Besidesthe accelerator, we run VC unlocked. So this is the community piece, theeducation program. So it's a shorter version of what's happening in, uh,Stanford between 500 and Stanford.Yeah. So we do a four days, uh, program. So there is onehappening next week. Actually, right after FII, uh, for VCs in the region. Andthen we have Angels Unlocked. And it's targeted towards unifying the mindset ofAngels and how to invest, what are the instruments and all of this stuff. We goto legal, commercial examples, you know, from here.And we invite community members to come and participate. Sopeople see a real taste of the industry. Who's a GP who started seven or eightyears ago and someone who's starting today and really ask all the questionsabout setup and so on and so forth, the sourcing and all of these stuff. Andthen the community aspect and we continue to evolve, as we say, even theprogram, we have updated it many times, like every year we say, are these arethe feedback that we got from the founders, we shortened some of the workshopsand we added a lot.in one on ones. So when we decide on the segment, we actuallylook which, which actually investors would be right fit to sit with them whenthey come, which mentors we should actually come, you know, and sit with thefounders here and really offer that value and specific sectors. And we're veryknown for our own, you know, kind of recipe towards addressing the KPI, youknow, and how do we really accelerate the growth.So growth hacking is at the essence of the program. And weassess it the first day, but by the time they get to demo day, this program isready. Definitely a progress whether from an investment point of view or from aproduct point of view or a launch because we invested in pre launch companiesthat launched during the program with the help of the mentors.How do we do a quick, you know, kind of test and experiment,you know, so by the time they actually show to the community, they have sometraction. So. I do think that we provide the support to the founders toactually get the first steps. If you have already gotten your product to themarket, we provide the support for access to market and getting the rightmeeting in place, you know, that could come faster.If you have figured this out, then we do provide the support inlike figuring out what's your next journey. So we're trying to become morecompany focused rather than, yes, not just a cohort, you know, focused at the end of the day.Ali Zewail: That'sreally nice. And, and I think also the, I mean, before I like continue, I thinkthis something like angel unlocked is so important because, uh, building thecommunity around us is also going to make us stronger, uh, so to speak. And theangels, uh, maybe the very early stage is kind of a missing link.That's not as strong as it could be. Uh, in the region. And soit's really cool that you're investing in that as well as, of course, the laterstage, which also needs Amal Dokhan: You'llbe happy to hear that most of these angels do invest in a lot of our companiesas well. So, I think part of it is like building that goodwill as well and thecommon kind of understanding, you know, for all of us. And at the end of theday, you know, we are the closest to the angels, by the way, because we'remostly the first or the secondcheck. So the chances are higher that my actually co investoris. The angel rather than the institutional VC, right? Um, so this, this becamean important thing that for us to do and the number of angel investors in Saudiin particular is increasing by the second. Like most of the companies get theirfirst checks from their angels, friends, and family, rather than from the VCs,you know, at the early days.And, and it's very important to actually focus on kind of themindset, you know, of, uh, ofAli Zewail:Absolutely. I mean, Amal Dokhan: as well.Ali Zewail: exactly.Cause like the traditional way they would think is, you know, I'll take 50percent of the company, you know, for the capital or something like that. Theydon't think like angels in the startupAmal Dokhan:Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's changing a lot with the two efforts because Ithink founders are becoming more educated. Uh, you know, they understand theirrights. They understand their legal documents. They understand. And we alwayssay no matter how sophisticated you are, always revisit, you know, everydocument needs always say not, not every safe is safe, right?Meaning that when you sign the safe, if, Okay. A couple ofclauses in the safe were changed and somebody circulated this. Not everyonewill take the time, as you know, to sit and read what was done and what wasaltered. There's an assumption that this is exactly the same document that'suploaded, you know.Yeah, but it's not always the case. So, so we do focus in boththe accelerator and the program for angels and VCs on the legal component, youknow, and understanding that. Because This is the exciting part of yes,investing and being part of a company and working with the founders, but thereis the piece that nobody talks about, which is the legal setup.What has been done? What has been signed? What is the impact onthe company today? What is the impact on the company later? And founders at thevery beginning, don't focus on that. They actually focus on they say they thinkit's fine, and it will be amended. But hey, these are documents you've signed.It's gonna hunt you probably till the last day if it's not done correctly.So yeah, this is just another thing that we always, uh, like Ali Zewail: Yeah.Well, and one sees that like a series a, where you have to revisit everythingthat happened in the past and try to fix it because it wasn't done right in thefirst place and the cost and everything in time. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it'sgreat that you're doing that. And so, I mean, going back to the structure, so500 Mina has the fund related to it.And then there's an accelerator program in Saudi, uh, which forthe whole region, and that's now the only one running. Right. Or, Amal Dokhan: Yes,it's the only investment accelerator running. And then there is in in Egypt, wehave boot camps, which is we have the seed boot camp and we have the scale ofboot camp. And those are non investment programs, but it's for the purpose ofAlso participating in building the ecosystem, and we also look at them and weinvest out of those.So it becomes a great pipeline for us to understand, you know,which companies are there, what's happening, you know, in a market. And I thinkmarkets like Egypt, you know, is a huge market. It's true. There were some ofthe issues around the devaluation and so many other, you know, kind of stuff,but it remains Egypt as an important market that has a lot of amazing foundersthat are building great companies, you know, that we're seeing in the market.And we do see that value and that importance of this market. Sothat's how this program came about, um, in Egypt. So, but the only investmentprogram is the Sanabel 500 Minaseed Accelerated. That's the flagship one forthe region.Ali Zewail:Wonderful. And, and how do you like, uh, how do you guys make decisions on whoto invest to? Is, is it each local team kind of, uh, makes decision or is therea regional investment committee where, where things proceed to that? How do youmake theAmal Dokhan: So, sotoday, as you know, in terms of deal sourcing, we have the general applicationand we are all very active in events and conferences, whether, you know, toparticipate or to speak or to go find. And we also have a lot of referrals fromour own founders as well. And now we have the bootcamps that could be another,you know, kind of a deal sourcing mechanism.So there's three partners on this fund. Uh, it's myself, Mypartner, Abdurrahman Shafri, and then a third partner in the U. S., Bajian. So,we do have, you know, someone in the U. S. and we have two persons in Sauditoday. And this is basically, those are the partners on the team. And how do wemake the decision as you can see, we do, it's a mix of like looking at theglobal benchmarks and like assessing what's happening, what models have 500invested in previously, what is happening in the rest of the market, but alsothere's our local experience as well.And what we see today, it's like, we see something. We look atit, we go, you know, after it, I'll give you an example of a company that maynot look at something, you know, global, but we do believe that this is a modelthat could go actually to a different stage. So we just invested in a company,uh, last quarter called Ijari.It's rent now, pay later, right? Ijari just announced the close last. Yeah. Yeah. So again, what does thateven mean? Yeah. So in Saudi, most of the rentals are done annually. And if atbest, you'll find six months, we don't have monthly rentals, right? And thethought process behind the company was there's a lot of people, younger ones,med management, you want to keep some of the liquidity with you.You want to travel, you want to invest, you want to do this. Ifyou pay ahead of time, you're basically allocating a huge amount of equity now.So. At the end of the day, this came up, you know, from someone who was in theUK who actually faced a similar problem, Yazeed, one of the founders, and theywere like, how big is this problem?And they started to look. And it's interesting that this is notjust a regional problem. This problem do exist, actually, in Korea, do exist inAfrica, do exist in other parts of the world. And there aren't many solutions,you know, around the globe, you know, that are doing it in a, in an efficientway. And they thought of launching this in Saudi.We invested last quarter as part of the pre seed and their seedround was closed two weeks ago with 15 million. It's, Ali Zewail: Uh,Amal Dokhan: and it'sa mix of debt and equity and, uh, the investors in, in that company. And thecap table is a mix of banks and, uh, debt providers and regional actually VCs.And I think. This is maybe one of the examples of companies that we need localpeople actually, you know, within the international funds in order to have thatcollaborative, you know, the benchmarking slash, you know, what's happening inthe region, what regulations are changing, what your grace is actually, youknow, not moving as fast as it could, what seems to be hot, but it may not.And as you know, it's a game of like, you do your best and thebest of your ability and doing your due diligence, uh, not knowing, you know,what we all wish we have that crystal ball. We all wish to have it for theinvestments, but, but this is an example of something that is quite unique, youknow, to certain countries, but not necessarily, you know, something that willbecome so obvious, you know, globally, but it's that mix of the two of us.Yes,Ali Zewail: Nice. Andyou make decisions unanimously, all three of you as partners, or doesAmal Dokhan: we do. We vote. We have voting. Uh, but we also agree at sometimessometimes there are deals that are very obvious. And sometimes there are dealswhere you see us taking more than one meeting. You know, it's like I'll getmore DT, I'll get more validation. Let's look at this model and do acomparison. So some of it gets decided, obviously, within the investmentcommittee where all the data points are available.Some of it actually could take a little bit of like, especiallyif you have a partner that's super passionate, you know, about the deal andbelieves highly of it, you want to try to show the others, at least if youcover all, I would say, all the All the questions that were not actually clear,you know, within the interview and then within the discussion, then we actuallywould vote on the deals, you know, after that.But, uh, but at the end of the day, I do say we do actuallytalk and talk a lot and bring a lot of data points. And like everyone tries toactually look at it, but We're very also founder driven, I think, in so manyways. So if we believe in these founders, you know, and the possibilities, evenif the offering was not as evident, you know, at the beginning, can we reallytrust that they will take the company to the next level?What can we do in terms of adding this visibility towards thefounders? Do we see, you know, any signs in the country that's actually Goingtowards that way and then understanding how realistic the founder is, um, atthe end of the day, there's people that come with the right background and theright experience.And, you know, no matter what happened in the company, theywill know how to bounce back, you know, with another solution with pivoting andall of these stuff. And honestly, I think if you ask any investor, they'll tellyou, I wish I can assist this, you know, from the first meeting or from thefirst, you know, kind of interaction, because that is what we're trying tosense.Besides all the questions that comes in the company is how do Iassist the ability of the founder and The rest of the team dynamics and willthey be able to talk together and understand and what do they provide? Do theyhave a little bit of clarity? Will they not have clarity at some point? Whatwould they do, you know, at that time?And I think this is one of the biggest things, you know, thatyou need to be able to gain some experience towards assessing. You know, if youcan start sensing that at least, you know, in one way or another, you see italso in the interaction of the founder with you. How do they communicate withyou? How do they talk to you?You know, there are impressive founders that you feel, Oh myGod, you know, it's like, how is this even happening? How is, there is a humanbeing who operates in this efficiency, you know? And then on the other hand,um, there are founders that I need to follow up with. I need to call and say,what happened with this?What happened with that? And I don't know. And again, Iwouldn't say it defines a good founder from another who's not really committed,but at the end of the day, you're trying to get the sense of your ability, atleast the chemistry of collaboration. And how can we talk to each other lateron? Will we be able, if I want to help you and you're not allowing me to helpyou, how am I going to penetrate that?We're not always at the same time. We're not always sittingtogether. We're not talking every day. So I think we try to test In a veryshort time. And Ali, it's the most difficult thing to do with the timeline wehave before the accelerator because we have the shortest time of like a fewmonths to actually choose, you know, 9 to 12 companies to invest in.Right. SoAli Zewail: Hmm. Amal Dokhan: a lot ofAli Zewail: by theway,Amal Dokhan: Theaverage is around 400, 400, 500, you know, this is what we look at fromapplications sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it gets to 700, 800. It's like, this isthe range, but, but again, we do have the reason the number looks like that iswe actually are open throughout the whole year, Ali. So if I tell you the wholeyear, the number will change because this is from, uh, time to time.This is the batch we chose to select from. So we keep theapplications open throughout the whole year. And then, uh, there is a timewhere we say, All right, from this time till this time, we're going to try toget all the companies that we want. And then we announced Online we say, allright, this is the cutoff date for this batch, but you can continue applyingand we'll consider you for the next one due to time constraints of not beingable to vet, you know, all the companies will come after the cutoff date.So that's one. And the second one is the external piece, whichis honestly most of the companies that you will see in our batches. Come fromthat one, not just the application, which is the piece that come from foundersreferrals. Um, we believe that this founder actually would fit here. They wouldbenefit from that.They're looking for this Um, and the ones that we see, you knowpublicly and we could meet, you know, it's uh, it's it's very very interestingHow when I look at every batch and say, oh my god, you know, how many came fromapplication? How many came from here? How many came from here? So it's it isquite interesting Honestly, I remember one time I was Step conference.I was leaving to a flight after my panel met a founder from aman, and we exchanged numbers quickly. And I said, Let's talk after I comeback, he said, You will see my co founder in our man. And I laughed and I leftand I got into the plane, and then it happened that after I spoke, they took usto a mantel and there was an exhibition of four companies as his partner wasthere.So it's like, this is not coincidence. Come, let's talk. Youknow, and, uh, and I talked to them, we went back to Saudi. We met and we endedup investing. So sometimes it's not the easiest touch point and it's not themost obvious. It's just about really founders follow through. Wefollow through, we become a, and the hustle exactly.So that's pretty much, you know, how, how it happened, uh, interms of vetting the companies and all of these stuff, literally they gothrough applications. Sometimes it's. The applications are not filled, youknow, fully. So we do either ask them to fill it again, or we just don't acceptat that stage because this is the first ask is just to give us this informationin an application.We haven't met, we don't know you, please fill it out and giveus the best of your ability of explaining that. And then if they pass this,they go to a second interview. You know, with one of our team members, youknow, and our associate, then there's another interview with a partner and thenwe would take them for a short interview with all the three partners as well.So, uh, this actually happens pretty quickly. So you'll seefounders getting a call. What are you doing tomorrow? You have this meeting,you know, scheduled. So, uh, so this is how it is. Yeah, yeah, this is how itis. And we try to close as soon as possible, obviously. So we close ourinvestments and we do give the offers prior to the program.So everyone who makes it to the accelerator have alreadyreceived that investment offer. So there is no vetting that happens in the program. Yep.Ali Zewail: let me,maybe I'd like to change text to something on more, uh, personal slashprofessional note. Uh, I watched your talk, in TEDxKAUST I was really touchedby your story as a child with a serious illness and going through all that.and, you know, I was wondering how, that has affected how you lead your life.Amal Dokhan: I leadmy life with a smile, Ali. Every day. There's nothing that has no solution andthere's nothing that is the end of the world. As long as we have the hustle, wegive the means, we do the job, we do the work, we go all the way and try toempathize as much as possible. I lead with, you know, hopefully I haveconsidered everything that I can do in the best of my ability.You know, it's almost like an oath between me and myself. ThatI will give the chance to everybody to express who they are, what they are. Andthat's not just in the startup world, but also in my personal life. And I willgive every reason to understand, you know, Until it no longer, you know, it'spossible. Because the person is not giving me the chance to actually doso. So, so I think it's, um, I think I always repeat that particular world thatI got out of my, you know, my cancer experiences. Resilience is something that.We don't realize the power of until we experience it multiple times, and youstart exploring and experiencing beauty in life, you know, and beauty andrelationships and beauty and discovery and beauty and solutions, right?That's why I probably, I would say, if anyone told me that, youknow, your disease will probably will be, will be the the The point and theconnectivity to my career today, which is I see a relationship betweenentrepreneurship and between what I have experienced three times growing up inthe sense of like, you do think sometimes that these are the end of the lifeand the end of the road.And then I've seen the power of my parents, my community, mymother's friends, my colleagues and how everything brought me back to normallife. I actually excelled in schools, not just because I was alone, maybe itwas If it was in my mind and I was alone trying to do things, it would havebeen as enjoyable.It would have been as easy. Right. And then moving forward, Ialways tell founders, you know, this journey shouldn't be taken alone. Andeveryone should know that. And maybe I always go into, you know, yes, it's ajourney. We actually need to consider the problem, the solution, thetechnicalities of it, but you also need to, you know, experience who are you,why are you doing what you're doing today?Who's going to do that with you? Who's going to support you?Who would you go with? Whom do you want? Even the investors, who are you goingto take with you in this journey? And they're going to accompany you, you know,in that. So I think. You know, that, uh, yeah, that experience is a title ofresilience, hustleness, you know, and, uh, waking up being grateful every dayfor the life I have and for the people that I meet that gives me thesedifferent lives.I think we as investors. Get to live the life that founders areliving without doing it ourselves, as you know, and they allow us toexperience, you know, the ups and downs of it. And hopefully we become thebest, you know, in backing and supporting,Ali Zewail: Yeah. Soit's, it's really about optimism too. It's a beautiful, uh, story. And, um,yeah, I mean, and, and you decided not to become a doctor after that, or, ordid it, how did, uh, that change your career options?Amal Dokhan: youreally went deep.Ali Zewail: Uh,Amal Dokhan: I seeit's there's nothing that I did. I decided to not become a doctor. I thinkbeing a medical doctor was one of the dreams that I have. I still appreciateand value every medical doctor that I see and hope that everyone knows howimportant is what they do, especially the ones that lead with empathy towardstheir patients. But I think it was not a decision rather than, you know, howmany times would I need to do that if I get cancer again? And I think it got,the thought got into my head at that time a lot, right? So because I got itthree times, I was the first time I was 11, then I was, you know, around 14,15, that I was around 19.And, and I think it was hard to accept the fact that therecould be a dot, not every. Your university will wait for me, not every degreewill wait for me, not everything. And, and I was feeling tired. It was, it wasjust a physical, you know,pain. And, and I think that's that part. It was like, maybe Ineed to take a break and just understand that my mom was with me.My mom was the one who was like, why don't you do something,you know, that could be just lighter, you know, and then you feel better.configure things out later. And that's how I got into, uh, you know, getting adegree in education back in the days. And that was in 1995, you know, and Igraduated first honor.I was actually, you know, offered the job, you know, to teach.And like, so I think for me, it was always about challenging the status quoabout the phase that I was in, the place I was in and how do I get to the bestof How do I stretch the experience to the maximum? I think this is something,and it's a trait about people, there's, you can choose to live at the edge ofit.You can choose to actually put a step in it and you can chooseto go all around the circle and like run everywhere and maybe even break and gosomewhere out. And for me, it was about that buzzing, you know, and like how toexperience life to its fullest. And maybe I took that and I brought it to mycareer.Honestly, I'm not that great socially, unfortunately, in my ownprivate life. Uh, not really. I work a lot, actually, I would rather be aroundevents and stuff. You know, uh, my own personal time is. the alone time is thequiet time, you know, so people would assume I'm a social butterfly. It'sactually not really.I am a social butterfly in my work, in the conferences, in theplaces I want to be in. When I see founders, I'm almost like, you know, justjumping and people. Know that about me, right? I'm just excited. I want to talkto this. I want to talk to that. I want to see, oh, now can we meet? When canwe meet? And my schedule is mostly full, you know, with all of these stuff.Plus I do prioritize learning. So every now and then there's anew thing that's happening in venture that I want to be part of. You know, I'mlooking into AI. I'm looking into debt structures because most of my companiesare actually doing that. So there's always something that's taking a lot oftime, but.If I do get my own time, that's definitely going to be a veryquiet, uh, alone time of reflection.Ali Zewail: sense to,to Amal Dokhan: yeah,yeah, Ali Zewail: And it's,and it's interesting that you ended up starting in education because I alwaysfeel like teaching is like a superpower because if you have, if you're good atteaching, then you're good at communicating ideas. You're good at, you know,being confident with others and you're good at, uh, understanding the differentlevels of.Of thinking, you know, for different people and talking tothem. So I think also education is, is a very formative kind of thing. I almostwish I had worked as a teacher at some point Amal Dokhan: it's oneof the most difficult alley to actually tackle and to become so good at it.And, and it's interesting, even 20 years later, I've met some of my students indifferent positions and they're like, Oh, you taught us at this stage, and I'mlike, my heart goes, like, Oh man, like life have passed and, and it's not likeI never realized I do appreciate, you know, how I started.I actually was a trainer for a very long time and I still enjoyteaching and I do enjoy passing the knowledge. And if there's anything that Iwould tell anybody, if there's one single advice that I give anyone just passthe knowledge, you will get the rewards one day. you know, in some shape orform, right?Just pass something, you know, you highly believe in. And younever know. I've got a lot of founders come back to me, maybe in two, threeyears, maybe the first startup didn't work. Then later on, you told us this andthat. And sometimes you say something and you don't really count how it couldimpact the personAli Zewail: Howinfluential it but you never know.Amal Dokhan: You justsay, but somebody comes back and say, just that thought have made me shift, youknow, and do this and do that. So. And because I've done so much in my life,like over 24 years, like I've worked in so many things and the shift ismassive. Like if you tell someone she moved from being a kindergarten teacherto, you know, managing partner in a fund, it's, it's a stretch, you know, for alot of people to digest.But, but I always say there's also the back end, like I've donethe work of it, you know, I've done the, you know, the study, the work, youknow, the actually going all the way to get the best knowledge over a courseof, you know, more than 10 years. Um, but, but that gives you a message thatpossibilities are big.And even if I want to reflect on a founder, You need to keep anopen mind of everything, even in the product that you're doing today and theservice that they could be more into it than what you're seeing today. Theycould be, but you have to listen and you have to see and you have to feel andyou have to allow your senses to be there.And I think that is the most difficult thing for founders whenyou love someone so much and you want to, Do exactly what you think is true,but customers are giving you mixed signals. And, you know, the way they want tointeract with it is different and they have other alternatives that they seemto be so attached to, and you have to understand all of that.And on top of it, you have to balance your financials and thepeople and convince the team that this is the right way and maintain them. So.Yeah, going back to, I think, teaching is a good skill to, to actually help youjust understand the different, you know, backgrounds and how people work. But,but we keep learning, Ali.It's, it's never, never an ending, you know, quest, obviously,of understanding people. Uh, Yeah. Surely. So yeah, I mean, from the personalto maybe to the, uh, regional, um, you've obviously like your scope is aregional scope. Um, and you worked a little in Dubai, like for two or threeyears, I think you're basically based in Saudi and you've been focusing there.So what, what do you think are like the specific characteristics of the Saudiecosystem that maybe outsiders don't realize?All right. There's so many, obviously, of what's happeningtoday, but I would say, um, huge market. You cannot ignore or deny. Like, thinkof a market that didn't have so many sectors that were, um, you know, unlockedbefore, and now it's unlocking and waiting for someone to come and provide. Soyou do have these definite opportunities in the market that are yet, you know,utilize to be utilized by the ones who come with it from outside or inside thekingdom.So I think the abundance of opportunities is definitely onething. It's not a saturated market. Like in the U S there are certain sectors.That are definitely saturated by some of the startups and the corporates andall of this. It's hard to penetrate. The barriers are really, really, reallyhigh, but I think you still have, you know, possibilities and some of themarkets actually in Saudi today.So I think it's just you keep your Eyes open as a founder andreally understand what's happening on the ground. Do not make judgments whileyou're outside. If there's sector you want, you have to be on the ground. Youhave to ask the people. You have to find who worked on it. You have to know thenuances and all of these stuff because there's highly influenced by culture ofhow people do business, you know, in Saudi.So you have to understand the cultural nuances as well aboutthis place in order to be, um, you know, accepted and in order to be, um, youknow, actually able to operate and to work in that market. So I would sayopportunities, but understand the cultural nuances, obviously, of how to dobusiness in this region or in Saudi in particular.Second thing, I think regulations definitely have started tomove and change faster than any other time. So there is a lot of the regu theregulations that we've seen have been the result of founders. pushing for thefirst precedence, right? So that means that regulator is open, you know,towards doing this.I'll give a quick example. We have a company Lando, it was inlending, and it was one of the early companies that worked in, you know, withthe regulators and that, the founder Osama, and, and, And they've done anamazing job, you know, laying actually the path for the future companies thatare coming in that particular lending space.And many others have done that as well in Saudi. So, so I thinkthat is definitely the regulator advantage is good. I'm not going to say it'sthe easiest, but it is actually moving in a very positive direction with theones that are willing to put the work actually for it. Uh, the third one isit's a young company. So you still have the possibility to actually change alot of the behaviors of the people via introducing new companies into it. Sowhen you talk about a country that has, you know, 85%, and I'm sure that thiskind of statistics have changed, are under the age of 30 or 35, then you'retalking about, you know, a very particular demographic, uh, over here.And it needs its own, you know, You know, kind ofarticulations. And again, you need to see this. Yes, and approach it in theright way. Um, there's abundance of dry powder. You know, in the kingdom,whether from not just VCs, actually talking about family offices, talking aboutangels, which you see it in the size of the check by angels, like you seechecks of angel investments, you know, and some of the cap tables that rangesbetween a hundred thousand dollars to a million dollars, which means there isinterest towards tech, there's interest towards companies, there's interest toit.It's just about finding the opportunities. Are they allunlocked? Not really. But I do say even, you know, there's a lot of funds thatcome to the region and they want to fundraise as well. And we always say, yes,there is dry powder, but I think there is still, you know, do we have enoughprecedence within technology companies that enable, you know, some of thesetype of entities to believe that I can allocate, you know, this amount of putit in the highest and the riskiest asset class, you know, possible and knowingthat it's a family money, for example, right.Sorry. think we still need to see, um, you know, more examplesof companies that have scale that have reached certain levels. And we need agood number. Like now we're hearing a story or two every year, right? I thinkyou need to hear like, we need to see 10, 15, 20 companies, you know, that aremaking it in order to become mainstream and in order to attract and unlock, youknow, that cash as well.Um, And maybe another one is the possibilities of, I think themovement in the market is very fast. Meaning a few years back, if you were tosay banks will actually look at companies, it would have been something thatnobody would even discuss, right? In this year alone, you've heard news ofacquisitions.You've heard news of investments. You've had news of funds thatare actually created by banks, you know, to invest in technology companies, notnecessarily Fentech, but it has a Fentech element into it, departments that arebeing set up. So I, I think, you know, technology is becoming the mostcontagious, Everybody wants to be part of today, but there's also a bit ofcautiousness, you know, around the movement, you know, and how are we actuallygetting there.But the general sentiment is enthusiasm, how many markets youcan talk about today. And you say that you will feel the enthusiasm the minuteyou put your foot in the airport, you will see that there is enthusiasm.Something happening, something in, I wouldn't say it's just in the air, butsomething is in the air.And then you see the possibilities as you get into the events,as you go and meet people, as you go and understand really what otherinfrastructural elements that are happening. You'll see a city shifting. Like,if I start by mentioning sectors that will be booming, you know, infrastructureis like, and construction alone, you know, in a city that's being actually, youknow, It's, it's happening everywhere and it's happening really fast.So there's room for technologies that will be utilized, youknow, there. Um, the second thing is just all these localized kind of solutionsthat people are using for, um, you know, to handle all of these products. Sothe buy now, pay later is not just, uh, you know, uh, something that's borntoday and will disappear as this generation changes, you know, and leads, therewill be other needs.So, So definitely pieces are coming, I would say together in agood stage, but we will still see, you know, the ups and downs in the market,like in the last quarter, there was a decreased amount of funding across thewhole region, you know, and now. You know, people are announcing new funds,everybody's closing, you know, you know, it's just, it seems like the sentimentis going back now towards looking at deals again.So one thing that I can tell you that we've noticed is that thenumber of deals have gotten less, you know, In the past, you know, kind ofquarter and until today, so it's the number that we're seeing is not as much,but this better quality of founders, there's much more assertiveness aboutunderstanding what venture means, you know, and I'm making up, you know, avery, very sane decision to start the company to leave my job to give this ago.And the government incentives in Saudi alone, not just forSaudis for for all anyone who is actually doing venture in Saudi is. A lot likeI can mention only a program. One of these programs and TDP. So the NationalTechnology Development Fund and what they offer. So there's a program calledrelocate.It's for any company that's in a series a that's relocating tothe Saudi market and they take them all the way from. You don't need to reallythink what does it mean to relocate to Saudi from your own movement into thecountry to actually helping you with all the legal kind of setups, you know,getting your CR until you get your bank account, subsidizing your tech talent,you know, getting you introduced to the market, getting an understanding yourfunding.All of that is done by a government program. You know, that'sone product. Imagine all the others. So you're coming to a place that isactually. definitely sure about, you know, pushing the boundaries, you know, tohave more technologies actually set up and they have them when we have themarket for it in Saudi.And then you have even the government fund the funds as well,uh, that is investing in technology, but probably later stage outside. Andeventually it's going to start looking at inside, you know, and the regionalkind of solutions. So, so I think this is what I feel when I ask founders aboutthat. These are some of the reasons why you'll find this, thanks.as an interesting and exciting market, obviously.Ali Zewail: Sodynamic, young techno optimists, government supported kind of ecosystem.Great. And, how do, I mean, you, I'm sure you meet many of theglobal investors who come to the region, you know, visiting and stuff. How dothey see the region in your opinion? Is it just a, like a barrel of money forthem or do they see other, yeah, I think there's all different types ofinternational investors. Uh, there's the ones that still don't see the regionas an opportunity. They feel it's just, they don't know a lot about it,obviously. So there's, That segment that still exists. And then you do have thesegment that, um, has a full belief because they came, they visited, they'veinvested the seed returns, you know, and they sent people to live in the regionand now they look at the opportunities and some of them didn't even fund fromthe region the first year, but then they actually got money after they provedthat they're investing.Amal Dokhan: And tome, that's one of the best actually profiles that you can see. You know, in theregion here, which is the believer one. And then you have in the middles, theones that hear about the opportunity, they see the movement, they're intrigued,but they're still not sure whether they should allocate a fund or maybe starttesting with one or two deals and see, where is it going to take us?Maybe start co investing. So we get a lot of people that say,how about we look at your deals that you guys actually have invested and we canactually co match, you know, what you're doing, and at least this is a de risk.We don't need to do the investment of setting up an office and having peopleand all of this stuff.Then you have another type that actually hire venture partnerson the ground. So they at least have possibilities, you know, and an eye to theevents and like to have presence and all of this stuff. And you have alsoanother type that go directly and just want the fundraise. And, you know, theydon't want probably the limitation of investing in Saudi, investing in MENA andall of this stuff.And that's no longer a valid, uh, option. option if you'reactually just that. Unless, unless you're actually getting funding, you'reactually quite an achieved, well achieved, I would say, PC thathave done the results. something like that. Yeah.Then yes, it makes sense for, you know, some of the funderfunds, you know, and all of these family offices to actually invest for theirown personal, you know, returns.And that's a very valid option actually until today. But juststarting and coming, you know, and expecting, you know, to be funded, there'sso many that are actually coming today. There's so many, you know, funds thatare being sold for all around the world. So it's no longer that. And I thinkthere is, maturity in the region to understand, you know, the good opportunity,the one that is, I think reading people is becoming more clearer, you know,nowadays than how it used to be. That's the learning curve, huh?For all of us.Ali Zewail: Yeah,exactly. So, okay. I mean, these last couple of years globally, uh, have beenvery hard on startups in terms of exits, markets, and, you know, getting thatDPI back to the LPs and things like that. So, so, and LP ventures in venturehave been like decreasing, uh, globally.How have you been seeing this, um, part of the equation in theregion? Uh, you, you said you closed the fund recently, so.Amal Dokhan: So,again, yes, this happened and we know the reason of why this happened,actually, in the past year, you know, and all the dryness in, you know, themost of the VC funds, everyone who was raising their second, third, fourth,fifth fund actually were expecting higher ones, then they closed and theysettled with certain amounts, you know, this other that made first close andthen, you know.They continued raising as they were investing. We've seen allof those. Some of it is really, really good funds, you know, that had verygood, uh, kind of exits, you know, and results and yeah, good TV PIs and likethey're, they're doing great, but not necessarily that everyone, uh, you know,was actually still in belief.You know, of all of these stuff. And I was looking at one ofthe podcasts the other day and one of the VCs was mentioning that, you know,even the exit windows globally is becoming really tighter and tighter, youknow, it's used to be, yes, public markets, you know, listing and all of thesestuff. And that's now kind of a thing that not everyone is looking at as themost, you know, exciting part, but.You know, where is private equity? That was his ask. You know,it's like, maybe there's an opportunity for those to get better prices todayglobally, right? If they want to get into the game and not all PE firms arevery excited about what venture has been interested in, but maybe they have aleverage to look at the deals and now tweak, you know, and give their owninfluence.So there's a lot that definitely happened, uh, globally. Andthere's what I've seen also from some of the fellow investors is like, youknow, What if we couldn't achieve our own DPIs, you know, that our LPs areexpecting? Then how do we become more creative? in achieving those, meaning wecurate, you know, how the exits will look like, you know, maybe you do apartial kind of exit, maybe, but just trying to return some of the funds at acertain period that after a few years past, you know, you want to show evidencethat you are able to return.And I think this is the pressure, like all these elements wasin. pressuring most of the VCs, you know, as they were going. And the otherpart is like the struggle that the startups had. It was not just VCs not beingable to fundraise. It was startups not being able to close. And we've seen somany that actually have just ended the journey, right?How has that reflected, you know, into the region? There was, Iwouldn't say that people stopped investing because of that or any of this, butthere's, I would say that the days of spending high on CAC and doing greatmarketing and showing no profits and no money and revenue coming in have beenover. You know, I don't think these are the days that we're going to see a lotof.Everyone is asking for healthier unit economics. It has to makesense. Because after 2021, as you know, rightly, it's like everyone was okaywith no revenue, no clarity, you know, in some of the business models, as longas there is exciting founders and exciting, you know, offerings, um, and a lotof companies have actually suffered because of the higher valuation, because ofthe higher customer acquisition costs and because of all of this stuff, andthen they couldn't turn it around.Right. Um, And they received multiple rounds of financing, butunfortunately that didn't lead into, you know, what should have been done atthe end of the day. But today I think that's why I was telling you there's abit of cautiousness, but also there's a bit of learning and maturity, you know,into, uh, you know, the region and towards what we do.And most of the funds in the region, except two or three, areactually new funds. That are probably three years old only or second or fourthyear. So most of the VCs actually in Saudi in particular are raising the secondfund. So you're talking about a very, very, uh, still, you know, kind ofnascent, you know, market that's still yet to see the success stories and thereturns of the funds, you know, and here the big kind of narratives, you know,around that. So I think, you know, as some of these funds have actually shown the exits andsome of the big market, you know, and some of the big companies, and those arethe ones that actually got, you know, the green tick and, you know, They'vedone well, they know how to choose, they've actually led the company all theway, you know, towards that.So there's a couple of like companies that I, you know, Tabby,Tamara, you know, in the early days, it wasn't really long time ago. But again,the success that these companies have made in the markets are actually Um, youknow, prior to that, it was obviously Kareem, but then you have also a lot ofthe regional funds actually were part of this and now they're back actually tobring this knowledge and know how to the market.So, so I think the market is shaping nicely, you know, with alot of, you know, Definitely bringing, you know, positive signs and theinternational money coming in, uh, is also another good, good actuallyindicator because it shows that there is also variety of like access tofunding. And the third point is as we progress, we see the need for debtfinancing.So it was just venture, venture, venture, venture. Highdilution for the founders, there was no other way. Loans of the bank are notaccessible. Today, you'll see everybody talking about debt and what are thepossibilities for debt today for a company and who's eligible to it, who canactually get it, and you know what, Is it possible to curate a round, you know,that could be a mix of the two in order to preserve, you know, the equity ofthe founders and make sure that they have room, you know, in the future.And I do believe, you know, in the region now you have, forexample, partners for growth is one of the funds that's actually have given alot of debt to so many of the regional, uh, startups, and that's going toattract. other debt financing and we're already seeing other European and like,uh, you know, Indian companies that are interested now who's done their ownsuccess, but now they see, you know, the interest in the region plus LPsstarted to look at, you know, investing in debt, uh, vehicles as well.So venture debt is becoming something that everybody's lookingat. And there are startups that started to also provide that. So they'recompeting with the debt. So most of venture debts, they would provide you aminimum of three to four or 5 million right in, um, you know, kind of in debt.So there are other startup companies today that are coming and saying, Hey,I'll give you the few hundred thousand dollars, you know, and like smallermicro amounts and all of these stuff.So again, this, yeah, very short to term, but guaranteed, youknow, returns also for both of them. The interest rate becomes actually is thecomponent where everybody, you know, kind of play. Um, and that's how, how itis now. So that shows you in four to five years, you know, you're still seeingnew products, newservices, new regulated.It's still, it's still being developed, right? So startupstudios in the past year, man, like how many startup studios have we seen inthe last few years? Again, Not validating or disvalidating, you know, the model,but, you know, there's a lot that's happening. So there's still time for thisto produce the type of companies who's going to invest.Which, what type of money does it, you know, attract? Um, butagain, that is good. At the end of the day, I told you. Back 2013 and seeingthe pace of things and now looking at 2024 and the pace of, you know, all ofthese things happening. You know, it's Definitely. Definitely. It's an amazing time. Ali Zewail: Right. SoAmal, you've, you've, you've Invested in so many startups over the years. Uh,if you could go back to your younger investing self and give it advice, whatwould you tell it?Amal Dokhan: Yeah.Goodness. All right. Um, to do things faster. If I believe that this wasactually, you know, a deal that I believed in, uh, out of taking the decisionfaster, um, and not to hesitate, Ithink, Ali Zewail: gut, soto speak.Amal Dokhan: uh, myguts and like, if I have done all, I've got all the data points, there's noneed to delay and, and I try to apply that today in 500 that we become fastresponse, you know, responders to the founders, right.Whether by positive or negative, but being faster is definitelyone. And I think the, the second component, uh, is basically definitely investat the beginning, you know, and learn more from the others that have done itbefore. So today my relationship with a lot of the investors, if they investedin a certain model that I don't know, I just pick up the phone and like talkabout it, really know, and everyone is willing to share, you know, the good,the bad and everything I've had the best conversations about reflections onsome of the companies.So, uh, I shouldn't hold the question. Just go for it. Ask thequestion, pop it, you know, and, and, and follow that.Ali Zewail: Nice. Sothe, there are like different religions in the area of early stage investmentin terms of people who swear by traction and others who think the team iseverything and product the market size, things like that. I mean, what, what doyou think is most important in early stage investing?Amal Dokhan: Um, man,we invest pre traction, pre product, pre all of these. I don't have even thoseto judge most of the time. Right. So I have to swear by the founders, you know,at the end of the day, and like how much do they give me? I know it may soundlike a cliche to say that, but as a pre seed investor, That's all what I havemost of the time to work with.And then when I get all the knowledge about their understandingof the problem, validating it with the other, I'm literally validating whatthey told me, right? So I'm evaluating their experience, their timeline, whatthey have done, what entities they have worked, and why this problem would makea great fit, you know, for these founders.I'm vetting them, a lot, you know, and just judge the dynamics,you know, of the team and like, you know, and all how they are operating witheach other. And, and really, I tried to assess they're, they're not the overoptimistic ones, or they're not the ones that are just being extra cautious,and they're not going to move fast, they just have the right, I would say,consciousness about what journey they're taking.What is about, you know, the afternoon I asked so manyquestions that founders don't expect me to ask sometimes, and they'll probablybe surprised, you know why they're being asked these questions at the initialtime. But I cannot ask you about a problem you did not solve yet, you know,except by what you tell me, I'm going to solve this. And we're going to digdeeper and we'll see how far you know. But if you tell me this is what I willbe building, lovely. I'm also looking at the way you're thinking, but at theend of the day, I don't have anything in my own hand, you know, to judge butthem. So, so again, yes, yes. definitely the people and their abilities.If we have product and company, uh, we try to assess, you know,their logic of how they approach the journey. Like, how did they get to it? Didthey allocate too much to the technology? Did they really take it step by step?Did they, like, there was a company once we invested in that solved the problemthat they're about to build a platform where for With an Excel sheet, and theysold it and they made 200, 000 just by selling those through Excel sheets.Right? So that was intriguing for me, because if they did thatwith almost no product and with Excel sheet, what would they do when they havea proper, proper, fully fledged, you know, so I think this is it's you'relooking for signals. at the early stage, you know, you're looking for a sign.Obviously, when you have tractions and stuff, it's impressive.When I look at the numbers, I'm like, this is amazing. Like,how did they do this? And then you go for it. But most of the time, we don'thave all of that, you know, it's, uh, it's, We have the founders.Ali Zewail: Yep.Founders are key. So I saw you in an Atlantic Council event, uh, saying thatyou aim to get a third of the batch, uh, at least to be female founders. And Iwas wondering how successful, I mean, you've been able, I mean, to what extent you've been able to achieve that, uh,objective.Amal Dokhan: We'veachieved it. It's not an aim. No, Because a lot of people, they're like, ohyes, but we're not seeing enough like deal flow from female co-founders, etcetera. How do you do that? So. So at the very beginning, it was not a target rather thanreally looking at, you know, the applications and what we're getting. And we.Found out that at the very initial stages, we found that in every batch, everybatch is like 10, 12 companies, and we have two to three companies that are ledby women in a time where everybody says that there isn't enough, you know, dealflow that are coming from female founders. And I think it's impressive to seethat, you know, there's definitely, you know, more companies that are beingcreated, but what I'll tell you where we struggle with that, not all of themcome through the applications. We have to see them in events, you know, orsomebody would introduce me and say, this amazing, you know, founder isactually working in something like that, you know, or I have to follow, can youintroduce me?Can you give me this and that? So I think, Not it's not thatvisible to all of us, and there could be so many reason there could be so manyreason why they could believe, for example, you know, maybe I'm not ready forfunding, or maybe I need to work more. Maybe I need to increase my chances. AndI think that I always tell women, you know, We like to be perfect all the time,you know, and do the best of the best before even bringing everything.And we don't like to be rejected. And I think that is shared byall humans that nobody likes rejection, but it's part of our journey is tounderstand and listen and hear. And I think a lot of female founders have saidthat. they've been faced with a little bit of like some of the stereotypes orsome told them that they're not comfortable with doing this.You'll find that you will find that everywhere. And basicallyyou will find your fit at some point, right? I've had so many of my amazingfemale founders and when they talk and then, you know, the kids would come orthey would run in the back and it's absolutely. You know, fine. And that givesme more validation.If your mother of three and you're building this and you'remaking it that far for me, that is more validation of your ability to takethis, you know, to the next level. And I think we need more narratives and morestories by female founders that have succeeded and have done actually what ittakes in term of the governance of the company of term of having a co founder,because most of the female founders are, they start us.You know, single founders at the beginning, they're solo at thevery early stage, uh, because they want to reach a certain stage of like, youknow, creating what they are aspiring to do. But having someone to support andhelp is an added value. And, you know, having a team is always a plus, right?So I think it's about understanding which, you know, kind of companies thatneeds, what kind of, uh, you know, additions to it in terms of team and whatsort of investors will back, you know, into that.And when I hear these stories, I say, there are so manycompanies that got financing and they're doing amazing. Like if I talk aboutSaudi, you know, one of the companies in 500 gathering, this company is growingmassively, you know, it's like a similar to an Airbnb model, you know, led byyou know, a female founder, Latifa.We invested in companies like Spare. You know, this is afantastic company led by an amazing founder. She's doing amazing, you know,working with the closing partnerships and doing. So I do have a lot of storiesand a bit. Big list of female founders that we've invested in. But I thinkwhat's really important to note that we didn't invest because they're women. Weinvested because they're actually amazing, skillful founders. And I have to saythat these actually founders have proven to us more and over and over and overthat they are just focusing on the right things and doing what needs to take.And I think this whole assumption, you know, Ali, maybe this is one of my.The topics that I don't feel that we can do it justice becauseUm, everyone has their own thoughts why we don't have enough diversity, youknow, within, within venture. But I say sometimes, you know, is it that, youknow, is it the pipeline? Maybe they're doing other, you know, also other kindof stuff that are great, that are amazing.I know a lady who owns a manufacturing facility. It'swonderful. She's doing great. Amazing, right? So if it's a pipeline thing, isit about showing models? Is it about education? Is it about telling go forward?Is it about that? I think there's so much to unpack there. The second thing is,I think we were lucky every time we invest, you know, we've had so manyinvestment, either the applicant is a woman or, or the co founder is a man.A woman actually in that sector. So, so it's interesting to seethe diversity and it's, it's added value. Um, and maybe the third thing Ialways say, just know your financials, know your legal, ask a lot. Don't beshy, you know, to reach out, you know, and just show what it is. And if youhave a product market fit, you know, others will come to you and they willinvest in you.So I think maybe my first thing, and some people, they say I'mcrazy about that. I said. One of the reasons why I did so many things in life.I've always removed this women, you know, kind of thought, you know, I'm just aperson going and trying and moving from one thing to another. And if someonetells me this is for women or for not, I'm more excited to actually go and doit.And, and I think just You know, taking that it will alwaysexist. You will always have the biases. You'll always have all of these stuff,but you can't stop. You just got to keep moving, honestly, but we did achievethe third of the batch. So, so you'll see Ali Zewail: Nice. Amal Dokhan: batch aswell.Ali Zewail: Yeah. Um,so I mean on, on a different tack, like on the same subject, but a differenttack, there's a question submitted by, uh, one of our listeners, uh, Iman Issa.And, uh, online. And she says, Do you feel under any kind of pressure whenevaluating a woman's startup idea? And do women in general have higher or lowerexpectations if they know their pitch, you know, will be seen by you?I don't knowwhat what she wants to know. Amal Dokhan: tounderstand it, I read it on LinkedIn by the way, but I didn't Ali Zewail: Ah, okay.Amal Dokhan: Does shemean that, uh, Ali Zewail: I,Amal Dokhan: I justdidn't get Ali Zewail: I, I think, I think what she's saying is do do women when, whenthey see like a woman on the other side, do they, do they have lowerexpectations or higher expectations? It's Amal Dokhan: Thatshould be asked by, you know, if it's for me, no, I look at them as founders. Iask the Same, questions, same questions, I evaluate the samething, even my whole team. We don't have, we're also a very diversified team innature, by the way. And that helps, like, my team is like, I have, I have a lotof females and I have a lot of males.So I do have the two sides. So, so I do feel that, you know, webalance when you have a diversified team, it helps, you know, when you'relooking at companies, because no one has this kind of Precious. This idea oflike a particular profile of a founder and the fact that we focus on the regiongives us also another edge.We invest in so many nationalities and not just, you know,Arabs. Actually, we have so many nationalities that come. So I think when youhave that much frequency of meeting founders, working with founders and others,This actually goes away and it's reflected in, I would say, in the DNA of mywhole team. You know, today that's sourcing the deals and, and maybe that'spart of it.That's part of like how comfortable is the culture, you know,within, within 500 and within, within the MENA team as well. So no, I don't reallydifferentiate my dear, uh, like seven founders, like other founders have spokento us. So, so they can tell you.Ali Zewail: Allright, so moving on to the regional, like the, the deal flow you're seeing. Arethere any up Amal Dokhan: Yes. Ali Zewail: that you,you're seeing in the deal flow? Things Amal Dokhan: So youcan't ignore applications of AI, Ali. Everything, everything has. artificialintelligence element into it today. I think the question is, you know, how manyof those really solve a real problem? This is what I keep saying. It's like,for me, I just want to look at the fit. I want to look at the fit. I want tolook at the possibilities moving forward.I want to look at what is it going to do? I always ask the samequestion. If, Anyone expects me to dig deeper into the technology and thealgorithm, you know, and the data modeling that you're doing. I'm not going todo that. I'm going to have someone else do it after I get convinced with theproblem. But I think the best question as long as it solves the problem, and wecan't deny, you know how fast it will happen, you know, towards All of the datamodeling that's being happened today.So so definitely that will see the applications of a I in allof the sectors and education and construction. And you know, every sector thatyou will see, it's going to be impacted, you know, by by a I ensure tech. We'revery happy to see so many companies in actually insurance in a sector thathasn't been disrupted for a very long time.So, we've seen a couple of insurance companies, you know, thatare actually doing it. We have one in UAE, WellXAI in health. So, two difficultthings, insurance and health, you know, combined in one company. So, um, Um,and it's very interesting there. Their performance is really well. So again,two sectors that are very interesting, but they're also underserved in term offinancing, so health will continue to grow due to how we're evolving, you know,in our life.I don't expect that we'll see less technologies and health.We'll see more technologies and health yet. I think it's the game of investors,you know, starting to believe in the power of like investing in health, youknow, at this stage, and the second thing is Obviously, again, uh, a sectorthat got a lot of money then got no money, which is education.Um, and I think, you know, it's just got a peak. And then afterthat, it was like a huge kind of, you know, drop of like, what sort ofeducation, but I'll tell you why education would be interesting in the comingfew years. There's a lot of verticals in education that is making it moreunique. So. upscaling blue collars, so retailers, you know, hospitalities andlike all of this.So not education in its normal sense. Um, I think more kind ofdeeper, you know, verticals that we will see a lot in because all companies dospend on training. They do spend on like doing this and that. How do I do it ina much more efficient, lower cost than other stuff? Things. huge opportunitythere. Um, I think a lot in retail, it's the most difficult when you look atall of these technologies, you know, within the smaller kind of ones, buteveryone is digitizing.So it's going to come a time where there will be so much toactually look at, you know, within within the region in all of these companies,and then financial technology will remain at the top. I think the innovationsand the verticals in financial technology are becoming so interesting. So westarted with the consumer base.Now you're going to see all the verticals that's going to getinto corporates are going to get into SMEs with its own kind of final lines.And I used to say that the products actually touched consumers. You know, kindof the surface today. You will see more depth into the verticals of it. Yeah,very much deeper.Like we have reach where they work with most of the retail tounify the communications channels, you know, and the intake of data, very backend. No one will see such a company, but then eventually as they do this, theyrealized all the needs that are coming. And Oh my God, they have greattractions that are coming here and there.So again, it's like the connectivities that happens in the backend that touches a certain big. market. And the list goes on, I think, youknow, within that, but there's a lot of markets that are still barely, you know, scratching the surface when it comes to that. Yeah.Ali Zewail: Yeah. Sothat's, uh, great. And that's another reason for optimism. And, uh, I wanted toask you also, you, I mean, you're on the board of the Saudi VC and Passociation, as well as the Middle East VC association. What are theseassociations focusing on in the next couple of years?Amal Dokhan: Okay.So, so associations in general, the Saudi one, uh, venture capital and privateequity association, the reason for it was there is, you know, venture space isbeing created and it started a few years back. So it started as the sector wasbeing shaped. And the idea was if there is a new sector that's coming up, therewill be a lot of questions.There will be a lot of lobbying that needs to happen. Therewill need to be a voice of when you're in a new thing, you will experience newthings. So who's going to communicate that to the government? Who's going tocommunicate that among the VCs? Who's going to talk about this and that? Someof it even structural and regulatory aspects.Some of it is about education, uh, about the stage that you'regoing to. Some of it is about getting to know each other and like getting theright connectivities. So literally that was the essence of it is just to havean umbrella for a sector that is yet evolving with people that have done itfirst, that sit on that board because the previous board was actually literallythe board of some of the people that have done the first VCs, you know, inSaudi.So those are the people that came together and have done it.We're actually. The second board now in the life of the association. And, uh,that's literally the reason why we do, you'll see a lot of lobbying and a lotof, um, education and a lot of connectivity and a lot of like bringing thevoice of the VCs to, you know, the other, uh, voice.So, so that's, uh, VCPA and then you have the Mefka, the MiddleEast. I just joined recently. So Mefka is a more of like a bigger one. So it'sMiddle East, uh, You know, focus that's based in UAE, very exciting group oflike in the board. And the idea now is to actually provide that as well, youknow, to the rest of the Middle East.And there's another component as well, which is how many VCsinternationally are coming to the region? Where would they go? How do I learnabout this? How do I learn about who to meet? How do I learn about what to doand all of these stuff? So that's the second one. The third one, that link withthe corporates and with the governments, again, it's a similar cause.Like how do I bridge the voice and like bring this and that? Sothere is a summit that happens for Mevca every year. The last summit was quiteinteresting. I got a lot out of it. You know, we talked, I think last year itwas about, um, you know, the, some of the banks, you know, You know, and thecollaboration, you know, the CVCs and family offices.So there was interesting people coming together, bringing andvoicing out, you know, what they're thinking about. And then there was a lot ofgood, positive discussions that, you know, definitely would be hopefullyfruitful for our own portfolio. So I think associations in general, um, Andglobally have a similar mandate connectivity, lobbying, education, bringingeveryone together to share the same voice.And it's true, you can go yourself. If you have theconnectivity, you can go and do it. But imagine if you go and voice somethingand say we're 200 VCs, you know, we have the same thing. It's real, you know,it definitely changes that. And the other part in Saudi, which is reallyinteresting if there is something because yeah, Now most of the governmentoffices know about the association.If there is a regulatory kind of, you know, uh, scheme that isbeing developed that has touched, it gets actually shared with the association.Is this, what are your thoughts, you know, what are you doing? So super exciting, you know, and,and super useful definitely as things, you know, evolve in the, in the kingdom.So that's basically what, what we do, you know, when it comesto. Uh, these words. Ali Zewail: Um, and,uh, maybe, you know, we've had such a huge conversation and, uh, I, I stillhave so much to ask, but I think it's time to wind down to in respect for yourtime. Um, so maybe I'll ask some quick questions. The first is which book doyou like to recommend to others most?Amal Dokhan: Uh, inlife or in venture?Ali Zewail: Uh, both.You can, we can have more than one.Amal Dokhan: One ofmy favorites is Start With Why. You know, I love this book. It's a classical.It's very straight to the point. Uh, and again, another life one. What I wish Iknew when I was 10. 20, it was written by a Stanford professor and the wholebook talks about, you know, asking questions, you know, trying and aboutexperimenting and it has to do with innovation and stuff.So those are two simple reads. They're very iconic. You know, Ihave a couple of copies, you know, of them and in venture, obviously mystarting book was always about anyone who wants to start. It's the most, themost iconic venture deals. So everyone knows the book. You know, it's a highlyeducational, it's a textbook, so you can select, you can choose what to read.But, uh, if you're getting into venture, you must take a look actually at that. Yeah,Ali Zewail: Uh, okay.That's great. And, and how do you unwind and how do you stay energized?Amal Dokhan: I gotasked that question, you know, last week by Global Shapers in a session, youknow, it's like, how do you, you're always very hyper, you're always very likeeverywhere and all of And I think if you ask me at any point, I don't get a lotof winding down, but let's say talk about the day. I mean, the end of the day,I try at least at the end of the day, just, you know, to come back home, turnoff the lights, really, really dimmed, you know, try to just think, listen tomusic, started to play piano.Even if I do it for 10 minutes, you know, I'm not the best atit, but I needed. I would say I needed something that can challenge mementally, but at the same time it has beauty, you know, and grace to it. And Ithink nothing can compete with piano playing, you know, at the end of the day.I don't get to learn a lot.My tutor came a couple of times and then I couldn't because Ihad meetings. But it's one thing I play with, you know, every now and then, andjust reflect on the day and make sure that I have my piece and my closing andtomorrow is another day and I'm going to start again. So I do review mycalendar the night before, organize my day.I can't have a random day. So I do actually look at my dayahead of time. So when I go to bed, I know what I'm going to do and who I'mmeeting and all of this stuff. Um, If I have the privilege to do it, if I'm ina business trip or whatever, and I had the day and the weekend, just an hour bythe beach, man, we'll, we'll do it.Ali Zewail: Yeah.Always Amal Dokhan: my, gotobreathing and for the mind and for everything. Absolutely. Itis the go to.Ali Zewail: Allright. Um, so I'd like to close on a, I always like to close on a note ofgratitude. Um, so what is, uh, something, a gift somebody has given you thathas had a positive impact on your life?Amal Dokhan: I think,you know, the gift of, uh, of time, if somebody gives you time, I appreciate itbecause in such a fast moving, you know, um, World that we're living in. Timeis becoming one of the most expensive things that you can give to anyone. Andif someone chooses to give me an advice to actually listen to me and listen tomy questions and all of these stuff, I have a lot of gratitude, you know, forsuch people.And I just leave these, especially if I know how busy they are.But I needed to share something or just get a second opinion. I appreciatepeople's time and I never feel bad if somebody says I don't have the time oranything because I run a similar schedule, but if I get it, I'm very grateful,honestly, to anyone who would give me the time, you know, and listen to that.So, so yeah, it's an advice to everyone, you know, time isprecious. People could choose to go rest and have fun and do other stuff. Butif they choose to give you this time, just use it wisely and have all thegratitude, you know, for it.Ali Zewail: Yeah.Agreed. And, uh, on that note, thank you for your time. Uh, thank you for youropenness.Amal Dokhan: Thankyou.Ali Zewail: Uh, thankyou for sharing with me and, uh, the listeners and, uh, Amal Dokhan: Thankyou, Ali. Ali Zewail: onsometime.Amal Dokhan: Thankyou, Ali. It was really enjoyable. Very, very, very interesting. So wish youbest of luck with the rest of the episodes and the guests. You already had someamazing guests, but wish you the best. Have a lovelyday. Ali Zewail: you verymuch. Amen.Amal Dokhan: Thankyou. Ali Zewail: Thank youfor listening to this episode of Startups Arabia podcast. If there wassomething you really liked about what the guest said today, reach out to themon social media and tell them what you liked. And of course, if you haven'tsubscribed yet, what are you waiting for? You don't want to miss any of ourgreat upcoming episodes.Also, please rate us and give us comments on our social mediaaccounts so that we know how to improve and also tell us what you like. Wedon't mind hearing that either. Until next time, this was your host, Adi'sWhale.
