Contact Links
Asher's LinkedIn account: @Asher Siddiqui
‍Sukna Ventures’ Website: https://suknaventures.com/

Transcript:
Ali: My guest today is Asher Siddiqui, General Partner at Sukna Ventures. a MENA region focused early stage VC fund that backs exceptional teams building the software and data infrastructure layer, enabling the digital transformation of industries. Asher is a tech investor with a global career spanning 25+ years, having made over 100 investments valued at over 15 billion over the years.
‍
He started his career in the late nineties as an entrepreneur, software engineer. Followed by 10 years in corporate M&A at Etisalat, the regional Behemoth, where he ended his career as head of M&A and corporate VC, where he led over 15 billion USD of mergers and acquisitions and investments into corporate venture capital.
‍
After that, he switched full time to venture capital, where he joined the global leadership team at 500 startups, now 500 Global, in San Francisco for four years. Asher was involved in the development of several VC firms, including Sukna Ventures in the MENA region, Lomekai Fund in India, Zain Capital in Pakistan, and Race Capital in Silicon Valley.
‍
He's also a GP coach and an advisor to several VC fund managers and sits on the advisory board of several VC firms, including: FootPrint Coalition Ventures which has been co-founded by Robert Downey Jr. - USA), Merus Capital led by the former Head of Corporate Development at Google, The Treasury led by the co-founders of Betterment and Acorns, two fintech unicorns, among others.

Enjoy this wide ranging conversation with interesting, very deep, very wise nuggets with Asher Siddiqui.

Ali: Welcome to the Startups Arabia podcast. My guest today is Asher Siddiqui. I am very happy to, um, host Asher today. The,our common connection who introduced me told me he's one of the most authenticpeople he's ever met. So I'm really looking forward to our discussion, but notonly, uh, That's not the only reason I'm excited.

The other reason is that Asher has hadsuch a wide reigning career, uh, you know, whether in 500 global, uh, managingit in a very tough period and it is a lot with more mergers and acquisitionsnow as a general partner, uh, at Sukna

Ventures

and also founding startups. So it'sjust so much. Uh, area to, to cover.

So

I'm very excited.
Thank you very

much and welcome

Asher.

Asher Siddiqui: Thank you. I'mexcited to be here and looking forward to the conversation.
Ali: Wonderful. Somaybe

we can start

in a few minutes. Um, if you tell usthe story of how

you kind of

entered this wonderful world ofstartups and, you know,

and

ended up at Sukna Ventures.
recording 1 ash: Well, that's, uh,unfortunately a long story, and I'll try to keep it as brief as possible. Um,so, um, I, I guess, you know, like no journey starts like this and you don't gofrom aha to, you know, to where you are today. So it has been a long journey forme. So I grew up, I'm, I'm from the UK. But my, my parents are from thesubcontinent and I was an expat brat, so I went to 12 different schools in sixdifferent countries and, um, I had a very sort of, you know, dynamic, uh,upbringing.

Um, and I was always hustling. I wasalways finding ways to make money. I never thought that I wanted to have a job.I never aspired to become, I come from five generations a doctor, so I neveraspired to be a, a, Doctor or an engineer or anything like that. I alwayswanted to be a businessman anyway. Um, so I was always building businessesfinding ways to make money.

So I kind of, you know, hustling, um,when I graduated, um, uh, you know, I decided to, I was building a, a businesswhen I was at university, it was a male skincare company. This is in the midnineties. So, you know, to, to those people who maybe weren't, uh, around inthe nineties, men did not have

Ali: Or
babies.

recording 1 ash: yeah.
So, you know, in the nineties. Therewas this, there was no concept of men requiring. face wash or face cream. I'mnot talking about makeup or anything. I'm just talking about basics. There wasno concept. So I created this, this concept because I wanted to wash my faceand, and then moisturize it because you know, it's basic thing.
Um, and I was sick of using femaleproducts because it was embarrassing to buy female products and I didn't feellike they were catering to my skin anyway. So, and that was a painfulexperience. I mean, I learned a lot, but what I realized was that. The U. K.Environment wasn't entrepreneurial enough. So I packed my bags and I moved tothe U.

S. And I was also a software engineer.Um, and I found that maybe I should do something in tech because tech couldsolve a lot of problems. Software could solve a lot of problems. So I wouldactually work with customers who would So I would actually work with customerswho would actually solve problems.

So I would actually work withcustomers who would actually solve problems. Who would be introduced to methrough my network, and then they would ask me to build them a software. So Iwould then think about, you know, sort of understand their business and figureout what their business does and how it makes money and how it serves theircustomers.

And then through that journey, then Iwould propose to them a software that could enhance their business, whetherit's revenue expansion or or cost reduction or both. You know, somehowimproving the customer experience. And so through that, I built, you know,event registration, event management software. Um, I built, um, you know, like,uh, software for, uh, managing, uh, practices, general GP practices.
Um, or, or, you know, optimizetranscription. So, like. All sorts of things. And, and I didn't know, I didn'twant to have, um, you know, to sell the software because what were they goingto do with the source code? And also how was I going to make a living? So Iwould convert them into long term contracts. And so, um, these were, I guess itwas, it was, um, ASP model application service provider.

This is like an old school term, uh,people like me know, but, um, uh, you SAS software as a service. Um, so thatwas from the mid nineties to, uh, mid two thousands. And I was also, now Ithink about it, I was actually a digital nomad. And I was, because I wasworking with customers all over in Europe, in the U. S.,

but I could live anywhere. And, youknow, U. S. was a very challenging environment to get immigration, visas,whatever. So I ended up going back to the U. K., wasn't happy in the U. K., soI was floating. So I, you know, during my travel, I ended up in Dubai. Um, andI was hanging out in Dubai and, and, um, so I was, as I said, digital nomadand, and, uh, uh, and a remote worker, I guess.

Um, and I, um, I met this girl inDubai and I needed an excuse to stay here. And so I started to, and I also feltlike I'd spent seven, eight years. Almost drifting. I'm making money and I'mable to sustain my lifestyle, but I don't feel like it's going anywhere. Ididn't raise capital. I didn't know how to raise capital for any of myproducts.

These were not startups. These werejust products that had maybe 5, 10 customers, you know, it was enough to, andthe server was a desktop in somebody's, you know, garage and a shared, uh, youknow, uh, data center. I think, uh, data centers are a optimistic term forthat. Anyway, I'm going to accelerate now. So when I met this girl, uh, fromGermany, I wanted to see if this relationship would work.

So I needed an excuse to stay here.So, um, and I'll, I'll give you dates. So on the 8th of Feb, um, we, uh, westarted dating and on the 8th of April, and I'm super, super lucky. Um, on the8th of April was my first day in 2006, um, was the first day. Um, as an M and aanalyst in a lot, uh, so M and a is mergers acquisitions.

And so I, I joined as one of the firstexternal hires and I just locked in the M and a department, um, where we were,they were just starting to build that M and a strategy to expand and, and, and,and go out there and around that time, getting for, you know, for the preparingfor a bit for the license for Egypt, for example.

And so I didn't know anything abouttelecoms. I didn't know anything about. M and a or corporate finance. And I hadnever had a job to be honest until until this point, but I had a bunch oftransferable skills. Um, and also I think, uh, I reflect on, on why they wouldhave hired me. I think one of the reasons why they hired me was it was 2006.
There was a financial services boom.Um, and what that means is that if you had a degree in philosophy oranthropology or art history, And you were vaguely interested in getting intofinance, you would get a job in London or New York, and if you weren't goodenough, Hong Kong or Singapore, but Dubai or Middle East didn't exist.
And the headquarters of Etisat were inAbu Dhabi, which You know, in those days when I would tell people I work forDhabi, they'd be like, Abu where? Um, and, and this is, you know, true storyfrom people who now know Abu Dhabi very, very well, but those same people, um,you know, did not know. So I guess the point was that Etislat were thinking,well, let's just hire people and retrain them.

And I wasn't a spring chicken. I was30 years old when I, when I joined as an analyst. So I also took a haircut andI. You know, it went down and I learned, but I asked a bunch of dumb questions,uh, and they invested in me, they, they, they took me through lots of trainingprograms, um, like INSEAD, uh, HBS, um, and also like, you know, doing likewith the Lehman and McKinsey and, uh, with Citi, uh, these analysts orassociate programs or evaluation programs, specific programs.
So I, I learned on the job and it was,and I was thrown in the deep end. So, you know, long story short. Uh, 2006 Ijoined, uh, three years later. I was co-head of m and a. I was running m and ain Asia and, uh, and, and sort of investment operations in Asia. And, you know,by 2011 I was global head of m and a. Um, and I never expected, uh, you know,to be at, in, in this sort of situation.

Um, and I started building the sort ofthe corporate venture capital platform because by this time I've learned aboutm and a. But, you know, if you remember, the reason why I took this job in thefirst place was because I wanted to see if this girl relationship would
Ali: Yeah, I'm waitingto see

how that ends.

recording 1 ash: Well, it ended. Imean, it started very well and it's still going.

Thank God. Um, but yeah, so 2007, uh,we got married and, uh, you know, and then the next year, uh, you know, we, uh,we started our family. And so, um, yeah, so like by this time. You know, we hada daughter and, you know, like that, that relationship, that, that investmentand it just not worked out. So then I was like, okay, I, I, I did what I wassupposed to do.

Now I want to do what I want to do.And so I wanted to get into, and I'd been exposed to. Um, venture, by the way,I was, I had actually been exposed to venture earlier as well. So I actuallyran, I never, I have not studied at MIT, but actually ran one of the first MIT50 K business plan competitions, uh, here in 2005 in Abu Dhabi.
Uh, so I, I was very excited aboutthis whole venture space. And my idea was I'll learn about investing throughthe investment department, uh, or, or, you know, uh, see, uh, international,uh, you know. So I'd learn from, from, from that. And I did. And so I startedbuilding the corporate venture capital platform, uh, thinking that, you know,this is a way, so I wanted to give back because I just thought had invested inme and I think they had a great return, but at the same time, I've.
I mean, I love this company. They,they gave me, I was nobody and they gave me this opportunity. And I, I led 15billion worth of M& A and I did some really cool things and I wasconstantly learning. It was just so much fun, but I did like tech. And so Istarted the corporate VC platform, started to look to invest in venture capitalfunds in the Bay area.

struggle to do that for multiplereasons. Um, one of them being that we were corporate and corporate LPs weren'tparticularly, uh, optimal LPs for, you know, some of the most establishedfunds. And we were also a telecom operator and telecom operators tended to, um,perceive, you know, that Technology digital disruption as a true like a, youknow, a disruption to their core business and and so because of that mindset,they were wary of us.

And of course, we were a Middle Eastbased and in those days, it wasn't so, uh, you know, common to to to raisecapital from the Middle East. So so there was many reasons. Um, but, you know,I, I did get into that journey, you know, invested in the region. Uh, that'swhen I met Tariq. Um, and, and, you know, we tried to, uh, look at his fund anda bunch of other funds.

We ended up did, uh, investing inI'mena and, uh, through I'mena, we, you know, we deployed, you know, 50 millioninto the region and it was, it was great. Um, we learned a lot. Um, and 2016 iswhen I realized that maybe corporate venture was not for me. So, um, I left, Imoved back to the Bay Area. And I started commuting, um, I joined 500 startups,uh, and, you know, sort of co led the firm, uh, for a couple of years, uh, andthen 2019, my wife, uh, did not want to move to the Bay Area.
So I was tired of, um, the commute andalso I felt like I wanted to go in a different direction to where, uh, some ofmy colleagues at 500 were going. So I, I left. And when I left a lot of theother. investors were also leaving. Um, and I started to work with them onhelping them build their own institutional, uh, venture capital firms.
So I've been involved. I've been luckyand privileged to be involved in some of the top firms in globally in, um, inmany different sort of, uh, you know, verticals.  

And, uh, yeah, around that time, I,you know, was introduced to, um, uh, forest, uh, who's the founder of, um, uh,super ventures and, uh, through a, for a mutual friend of ours.
And I started working with forest and,you know, I, I come from a B2B. software background. And, you know, we'd seen alot of consumer opportunities in the region, but we hadn't seen enough B to Bopportunities. And one of the cool things that happened through during thepandemic was, um, we started to see, you know, people sitting at homes,decision makers sitting at home and, and their They're actually seeing thatactually they need technology to run their businesses.

Um, and so all of a sudden they weremuch more open to, um, you know, Buying software over subscription. And so thatcreated this sort of opportunity. It was like the digital transformation of,uh, across industries in the region. And that was exciting. It's boring. It'snot seen, but it touches everybody. Um, and that's kind of what I like.
So Farris and I started working onthis and then we thought. We need somebody smarter. So we, we went to, uh, myold friend, Waleed Albala, and we roped him in. So he left a 500 million fundthat he co founded with, uh,

AIT.

And, uh, he, he joined us to launch a50 million fund. So,

and here we are. Um,
so that was a

long winded,

Ali: Beginnings areexciting.

recording 1 ash: Too long there.
Ali: No, no, it wasn't.I mean, uh, it's just,

uh, the fact of,

uh, how much, you
know, you've you've seen and how
much you've experienced and That'swhat it's, what this podcast is about. So, I mean, uh, I'm going to dive intosome of the details of some of the stories because all the
stuff

you've gone through
there, there are definitely things wecan learn from that.

Uh, but there's something interesting
I noticed in your bio. Which is thatyou're on LinkedIn,

uh, which is that you're starting itnot with all these things that

you're talking

about, but with the fact
that you've been through majormacroeconomic

disruptive events, you know, the Asianfinancial

crisis,

97 dot com bust in 2000.
9 11 in 2001, financial crisis in 08,COVID. I mean, it was

an

interesting way to start
a bio.

So I wanted to ask you about what isthat

about?

Asher Siddiqui: Okay. Thank you.
So, yeah, so been asked that, um, sothat was a reaction to, um, you know, what was going

on in

2021,

22,

it was just this whole boom and, andI'd seen this story many times I'd boom, boom, bust. and I remember,
know, meeting, I, I remember being oneof those people thinking this, the music will never stop in, uh, in
the

nineties and the early two thousands.
And then it did. And
then I

sort of experienced this times and I,guess to do was,

um,

I considered the naysayer,
or the grim reaper, um,
uh, know, um, or, the, the kill, thebuzz Uh, kind of

guy. Um, know, I, I
talk founders founders would be youwe're raising at this valuation.

And I'm know, you doing? Like you, A,you don't that much money.

B, you're yourself. How think you'regoing to grow yourself into that valuation? It's well, right now are this, I'mthat's how you get valued. look

at last 10

you at last years,
this boom bust cycles.
And

you at the, you sort of where theaverages And that's what how you yourself. don't. And so I that was attempt byme to have smart founders, um, who

would take

the time like to actually read my bioand actually read it on to then

come me prepared.
Because

I'm not gonna be interested in talkingto super, sexy startups run by super sexy founders who are super cool andthey're able to raise like lot of money do big things. That's just me. I'minterested in who solving real problems and so that's one the things.
the other thing is, um,
you learn

a lot, right?

Venture is very long game. And have tounderstand know, like a fund manager, know,

fund and investing this fund overthree to five

year period. period of these, thisportfolio is 10 12 years, if not more, sometimes depending stage precede seat.
So we're like,

likely to be 10 to 12
years. And so that is what doing isyou're investing today and you have to look at the. I'll take a longer view. Sotoday

market is bad. That's actually a greatto investing uh, from perspective. And so when, I, when meet LPs and people areinvesting my fund, or when I

meet founders.

We're thinking this is not
a great to

be starting company valuations alone.
I mean, I'm, I'm

saying, are you kidding? this is thebest time to invest in fund. This is the best to be backing founders that arebuilding something because it's cheaper to build, it's cheaper to hire, havecompetition.

Um, of actually cutting
costs,

so you have less competition from the
big boys

and you the space to build and thinkand, and, hire the best people and,

and build

and evaluation matter becausevaluation, know, like you

will grow company and you
grow value of your
business.

But solve real So
the the idea there help people that,
you have to put your
into context and you this ofeverything else. And you a lot from, uh, you learn more from challenging
environments than you
do from.

you know, you think, uh,
going for forever.
Ali: Yeah. You learnand you learn quicker as well because you know, you

don't have that much
leeway.

recording 1 ash: Yeah.
Ali: So,
yeah,

I mean, uh, I

can't agree with you
more and everything you've
said. Um, um, and now
I get it

why you put that

in the bio.

Um, Okay. Going back to Sukna Venturesand you spoke about digital transformation in the B2B area.
So

just to

understand the

thesis more, is it purely B2B? BecauseI saw a very diversified portfolio when

I, when I, you know,
uh, checked out, uh, including likefive funds, I think that you're

invested in.

So it was, uh, is, is that, I mean, isthe, is that the only definition

of digital transformation,
which is like the headline for SuknaVentures.

recording 1 ash: No, so I, I shouldclarify the, the structure of, uh,

Sucna. So Sucna is,
is, is two separate, uh, things. So
there is a, a,

a holding, uh, entity that has, uh, noreal, um, like no specific sort of thesis. Uh, it's a global investing vehicle
and through that

vehicle. We invest into funds all overthe world, and that provides us with deal flow.

Um, and then we invest in deal flowglobally. That piece is run

by Marvin Leo.

Marvin is my old buddy from 500startups. So Marvin actually built the Accelerator, the flagship acceleratorprogram for 500 startups in San Francisco. He actually opened the office in SanFrancisco and built that flagship accelerator.

So he

did like,

I don't know, 450 investments duringhis time at 500.

Um,

so he runs that vehicle and that ispart of the reason why we find it. Uh, quite challenging because I get a lot ofdeal flow, which is sort of Marvin deal flow. It's like global and it's a lotof different things. It's just Marvin has, Marvin's in so many deals in so manydifferent areas that he has good knowledge and insight about so many differentthings from B2B SaaS to, you know, e commerce, um, uh, to web three to like,you know, to gaming.

And so that's, you will find, uh, sort

of that broad.

And then we have a fund, which is theCircular Ventures One. Uh, that fund is a regional MENA focused fund, and there

we're

investing

in

sort of the digital transformation,uh, of industries. Uh, but specifically if you want me to dig. A little bitdeeper into into what I'm looking at.

So I we don't necessarily invest inany B2B SaaS company or B2B company. What we invest

in are companies that are
building

a product

that is hard to build. Um, but onceyou build it. It's will scale

and

it will be defensible. So
like

I use the term softwareinfrastructure. Um, so what, what we're investing in is companies that are
building the infrastructure
layer using software because thefuture is, you know, software, everything is software.

So, um, uh, and you need the
hardware for that, of
course. And you need the real worldfor that. Yes. But what we're looking

at is.

Companies that are building thesoftware infrastructure layer. So for

example,

we don't invest in payment companiesbecause the barriers to entry for payment companies are low and, andcompetition is high and it's very

fragmented, but

what we invest in is, for
example, we invest in a company,
uh, recently money hash, uh, wehaven't.

Uh, yet. But, um, uh, it's a,
it's a

infrastructure layer, uh, solutionbecause what it's doing is, so there's so many different companies out there,payment companies out there, payment, uh, processor providers, and it's so
fragmented.

And. And this, you know, like, how doyou as

somebody

who needs to manage payments as acompany, how do you manage that?

And so what they've done is they've
actually built

this infrastructure, um, softwareinfrastructure to enable you to basically plug and play without
having to do any of the development
that you need to do to be able tomanage payments across borders. Um, and another one, for example, um, asubscription management company.

So we, uh,

we. We're

invested in subspace, for example,again, we haven't announced it, but

we've been very active.
We've done seven deals in the lastseven months. So, um, subspace again is like subscription infrastructure, uh,layer. So we, we like these because they're

solving

really good problems. They're SASbusinesses, but they're also cyclically defensive in the sense
that,

um, you know, when you find theseconsumer, um, consumer companies can,

can create huge

amounts

of

value.

And no

doubt about that,
but it's just not part of my DNA.Right. So I, I don't understand those businesses,

but what I do understand is
when you have these ups and
downs and cycles

and cycles across, uh, what you findis that these types of businesses, they are, I remember this from when I was a
founder.

Um, People lost their jobs in mycustomers, uh, company, and they bought more licenses because they
needed fewer people to do more.
And

so that's

the type of business I like, whichgrow when the economy is growing, but also grow

when the economy

is not. And that's what I callcyclically defensive now. So, I mean, that's a lot to unpack, but that'sthat's, that's, that's the

core,

Ali: exactly, um, Ithink that gives more clarity

there.

Going to another side of the, I mean,there's this running debate in venture when you're deciding to invest in astartup, what's more important, the founding

team or the market, and, you
know, where do you stand
on that debate and
how do you approach it?
recording 1 ash: man. And that is agreat question. Um, and a hard one to answer because. Um, so, okay. So there'sthree, uh, lens, right? So there's the product, there's the team
product and the market.
And unfortunately, and this is whyventure is hard.

Unfortunately,

I need to back the right
team

that is building

an amazing product. That is hard tobuild and easy to scale

Ali: Mm-Hmm.
recording 1 ash: in
a market that is big
and

or is growing and,
and the timing is right for thatmarket. So there are so many, so unfortunately, you know, I,
I'd love to tell you that one or two,but the reality

is

you kind of

need.

You know, like straight A's. Uh, well,that

is the premise of venture.
The premise of venture is so, youknow, loss ratios are high, most startups fail. And so

when you,

as a venture investor are investing ina startup. You need to have the conviction and the belief and you
may be wrong

and most of the time, sadly, you arewrong, but, or

I am wrong

most of the time, but,
um,

you

know, you,

I have conviction and belief that thiswill be

a big

company.

It's going to be a big company that isgoing to serve a

lot of customers.
And I have that conviction everysingle

time.

And so in order to have thatconviction every single time, I need to know that I'm

backing. The right founders buildingthe best product,

serving a market in a market
that's growing.

Um, and I need to have all of that andthe timing is right.

Uh, and I've made the mistake
of, of

doing the first three and mistimingthe

opportunity.

Ali: yeah.
Timing.

Yeah. And, and, and, I mean,
it's tricky, isn't it? Because I mean.

What's, you have the
market, right? But
then the founding team isn't perfector, but there are people who say

like, you know, Mark Andreessen,
you know, if, if you have the, thewrong founding team

in the right market, you
know, market wins, you know, he alwayswrote the strongest team.

So he's, he's kind very pro market,uh, as long as of course, you know, product market fit is there. Uh,
recording 1 ash: So
I have a

I have a different view. Sorry, did
Ali: ahead. Go
ahead.

No.

recording 1 ash: um, so,
you know, it's in my mind. Um, you
could get timing wrong.
You can get

market

wrong. In, in places, but you knowwhat's interesting? If you back the right. So,

okay, so

let me, um, you know how you've gotthese pitch deck with, you know, like, uh, uh, the, like an elevator pitch andthen you've got the, uh, you know, like the product, the problem, the solution,the product, the traction, the marketing plan, the

go to market.

You know, like

how much you're raising, da, da, da,and the team. So all

of

those are

filters,

all of those are filters, whether, uh,to figure out whether, you know, trying to understand

product market

timing, all

of that stuff,

but actually that is just a filter andthe filter is now to spend time with the founders. To see whether these are thepeople

that we want to back.
So if I wait my decision makingprocess, I would say, depending on what stage you're investing in. And I thinkthat that is where I think this advice is generic statements
aren't helpful

unless you qualify it with stages. SoI'm a pre seed

seed

investor.

So I'd pre seed seed, I would say 60to 70 percent of the weight of the investment is actually my belief in thefounder. And the founders and my perceived

ability

of the founders ability to solveproblems. And if I do that, yes, I, fine. I might get the timing wrong. I mightget the

market

wrong, but if I get
the founder, right.
And that is a unicorn founder.
I hate that term, but
you know, if I, that is like a diamondin the,

in the rough, then
they will figure it out and they will,they will

pivot their way to a market
that is right. And they will build aniconic company.

And

that is true for, if you unpack somany companies that

have, you know, gotten to that level
and they never started in a
big market, you know?
And

so my view is if you've backed theright team.

Then, you know,

obviously as you grow, like at seriesa, for example, I think it's maybe less, it's like 50, 50, maybe, or 60, 40,the other way around, because now

you've

got a lot of traction. Now it's about
how, what

kind of team can

you build,

you know, and, and then the further,the later you go, the less the founders are, um, you

know.

Like

carry the

weight that they do
at the early stage. So,
um, I do think

that the founders is, is critical
in my

mind. Um, and you know, there's manydifferent reasons for that. Ventures are people business. Uh, we invest inpeople, um, and that

is

what we're really investing in. And weneed to invest in people that we believe

in and people that we can
stand the sight of.
That people who need our help, that
we are,

we want to

pick up the phone and we'll be
available to them rather than. I don'twant to talk to this person, you know, that's

not what you want
from your investor. And
that's

not

what you want

when you're investing in a
company

because you want like anytime they'rethere, I'm like a puppy, like waiting for them to like call me message.
Yes, finally. I'm helpful. I'm, I'm,I'm, I'm, I'm helpful to this person cause I admire them, you know? So that'swhat you want. That's the relationship you want. And so that's where
I think

a

lot of the,

uh, sorry,

I'm,

I'm sort of. You know, it's making ameal of this, but like the whole idea

is

founders, founders, founders.
Now, obviously, and the reason why weask a lot of questions around, you know, how they think about the market, youknow, you may get it wrong. You may have a belief and that's okay. We want tounderstand how

do you get to that belief?
Um, what

are the logic,

uh, logical steps that you've taken toget the data to You know, to come to that belief, for example, so what we'retrying to figure out is how do

you think?

Do you do you think on your feet? Canyou solve problems? Can you are you open?

Are you rigid? Are you coachable ornot?

And so there's so many things. And
then

then it's

a relationship.

And then just one thing I'll say, andthis may sound terrible,

but, um,

you know, statistically, we Repeatfounders. Now, this is not always true, of course, because that's the problemwith venture.

It's like nothing is there's no suchthing as

a golden rule.

There is no

rule. Everything I
said and everything
that you quoted

from the other investor is right andwrong at the same time because there are no rules. And so, but statistically,you find that repeat founders tend to have higher outcomes than the model.
First time founders know this is astatistical thing. And the thing about statistics is

outliers

exist. And, you know, like 60
percent of, for example, I've heard
in some cases, like 60 percent of ofunicorns, you

know, are repeat founders.
And so when you understand that, thenyou understand that, okay, you know, this could be a home run on day one.
Or maybe this person is going totransfer to another team and then they're going

to be,

um, you know, like the,
you know,

a player of all time or whatever. Andso, like, you're building a relationship and, uh, of course you have a beliefthat, uh, you know, so this is not charity. We have a belief that you're goingto make it this time.

Ali: It's going
to be

recording 1 ash: But
if you don't, then depending on how wewere,

if I was, uh,

like helpful and hopefully
this person will come back to me andsay, I'm building this now and this is what I've learned and this is what Iwant

to do. And I'd like to have you on
board

Ali: Right. Uh, itshows it's a relationship business

and a long term

one, definitely.

So

yeah, I mean, at the early stage
founder kind of first for you, itseems, um, and market is important of course, but, but does one measure marketor, or, or really? Get a handle on a market when is very new and you neverknow, you know, you have, there's many examples, you know, Twitch, when itstarted as a, uh, or even, um, or Carta, even when they started, you know, captables, who's going to, how's this going to be a

multi

billion dollar company.
And now they're doing so
many other things and they've
been able to expand, et cetera, etcetera. Um, so, I mean,

how do you

get a handle on market and potentialTAM with a

new idea

that hasn't been done before?
recording 1 ash: and that that'snot easy, right? And this is why again, venture

is hard

for investors and for founders,because what are we in the

business of where in
the business founders are in thebusiness of building

the future

investors are in the business ofbacking founders that

are building the

future. And so the problem with thatis that you need to have a pretty good imagination, but you also need to have apretty good, um, sense of questioning everything and questioning your own, uh,biases and, and, and questioning your own sort of beliefs.
And

so.

Ali: Limits. Hmm.
recording 1 ash: And so like it'sit's hard, you know, like it is actually hard because what you
have to

do

is but there are ways
for you to sort of think about this.So, for example, I'll answer this in

a different way.

So I was at a panel. So I'm not thesmartest, you know, brightest bulb and so, but I

was

at this, at this

panel

where there's all these Nobellaureates and like these super smart people and, and I was on this panel and Iwas like, Oh man, like, this is like, I

do not belong here.
And the question that they asked was,
are you

going

to make?

Thankfully they gave us a heads up.So, um, the question

was,

you know, what, what should I beinvesting in, in a hundred years? Like, you know, like, uh, what, what, whatshould you be investing in? That's going to be iconic in a hundred years. And,you know, you can extrapolate that.

Um, so

I, I did that and I, I went through
the whole mental sort of exercise. Iwent through the exercise of figuring

out.

And that's

kind

of how you figure out opportunities.So let me, let

me

give

an

example. So, um, at the time this wasa sort of a climate kind of a linked, uh, event. So, um,

what I

thought about

was, okay,

um, a hundred years from now, if welook at all the data,

Uh, that

exists.

And we think

about,

you know, what is happening to our,our environment. Um, you know, the world is getting more and more inhospitable.And so, um, you need to invest in, in things to, there's

two options, right?
So

one,

you can leave and go to Mars,
or, or you

can actually slow down the, um, Therate of, of, uh, of change, uh,

that's happening,
um, because I'm a cynical person, Idon't believe in humanity's ability to sort of control themselves, myselfincluded.

Um, so, um, you

know, it's what I thought it
was. Well, maybe

I should invest

in space tech. So I started looking atinto space tech. And the reason I looked at space tech was because you arepotentially so there's people who are motivated to

invest in Mars or going to
Mars and in the process of going tothe moon or Mars or wherever you

are.

Figuring out how to sustain lifethere, your life there and, and

your, you know,

what you eat and, and how you breatheand whatever,

and all of that

technology, all that money that'sbeing invested there, all that

technology that

all that IP that's being created isactually in 100 years going to be very, very useful.

For humanity on earth because earth isnow closer to the environment, uh, you know, in a hospital environment, so canextract that. So now obviously you need data for all of these things and
I, I

sort of, this is at a 50, 000 feetview, but

my point

is you need data and you need to havea view and yes, a very active imagination,

but.

You need to have all
of those

things. I'll give you another example.If I may, uh, if you have time. So in,

um,

and again, you know, like there's somuch. So I think what people

don't realize

is that, um, you know, your job is noteverything. Your life is everything. So, you know, like my. My perspective isjust like everyone, like

your perspective and everyone else'sperspective is unique.

Why is it unique?
It's unique because we've all hadunique circumstances that led to our birth. We

have all had

unique, relatively unique, uh,experiences as we were growing up. And, and everyone we've met and, and hassort of like impacted us in, in, in many different ways. So we all have thisunique perspective.

And so like, and that is a lifeperspective that we have. And, and so I, when you, when you start
to look at

that, then you start to think there's,there's. There's ways for you

to benefit from

your personal experiences. So, forexample, I'm, I'm British and my wife is German. And so my daughters have bothpassports.

And, and so we're, I guess we're, youknow, privileged citizens of the world. And we lived in Dubai. And, um, I wasalways thinking where, because of climate

change and, and,

uh, all of this, I was thinking, youknow, like where my children will be when they're teenagers is where they'relikely to. Build their families.

And so what that means is that if Idon't make the smart choices today, I am basically putting a nail in the coffinof my future offspring that I

will never meet in
100 years or

whatever.

So I

need to think about
that. And maybe that's dumb for me todo. And, you know, but that's just the way

I am.

So I started thinking about this inlike 16,

17 and 20 years. And, uh,
and I started looking
at different

parts

of the world where
we could move

to.

And, you know, I mean, it's a, it's a,it's an exercise that I was doing.

It's kind of nerdy,
it's kind of stupid, but I was doingit. So I was looking at, you know, Zurich and this and that. And I went toconferences as well.

So

I would go to

conferences and I'd be like, Oh, thisis cool. So I, I showed up in Helsinki, uh, in, in Finland, and then I went tothis, uh, this. Really cool event in the Laplands called the Knights of Slush,which is an event that happens before Slush. So I'm

not a party

person. So I went to the Knights ofSlush and then I got the hell out of there for Slush.

But there's nothing wrong with Slush,it's just I'm, I'm old and I don't like to

party.

Uh, so, um, so I went to this, uh, inthe Laplands and, and

I started thinking,
okay, maybe I should. Consider thisplace because this place

will be like,

you know,

like Portugal in,
in, uh, 2030 years, maybe, you know,like nice temperature, but then I started doing research and I found that therewere these anthrax outbreaks, uh, uh, outbreaks of anthrax, um, uh, because ofthe permafrost thawing.

And so I thought, okay, that's justthe first layer of the permafrost. What else is in there that we have not beenexposed to? Then I was like, oh, no, this is a pretty scary place to be thenorthern hemisphere because there's all this stuff. And we're like, But then Iwas like, okay, so how do I protect myself?

How do I avoid, I'm sorry, I know thisis paranoid, but this is just like how the rabbit hole goes, right? So, or howam I thinking

though?

So, so I started thinking, okay, sohow, how will I protect my family? So I then started looking at, okay, what
are the,

uh, how do you get there? So trainsand, and, and planes, uh, and automobiles from, from, uh,

uh, levy

or to, to Helsinki and then fromHelsinki.

Okay. How.

I mean, this is like, you know, 5million people or whatever in a big country, isolated, right? Within 35 days,we had a regional epidemic, and within 60 days, we had

a global

pandemic, uh,

according to my model.
And this model,

like,

sort of,

like, wrapped up in, like,
2018. And, and

I started talking,
and so I was like, okay, this isinteresting.

So, so volatility is increasing in
our environment.

Our environments are becoming more and

more volatile and unpredictable.
And you could, if you can have apandemic, global pandemic from,

um, from

Kittila in the Laplands, where peoplego for, you know, to meet Santa Claus,

um,

then, I mean, that's kind of scary,right?

So, Now, of course, healthy paranoia,and I'm totally in la

la land, right? And most of myfriends, I can

tell you, and most of the investorsthat I met thought I was a little bit loopy, right? So they used to think I wasa rational, intelligent human

being, and then they were like,
this guy is nut, uh, is a nut job.
Um, I could see it and I mean, theynever said it to me, but

you know, when you
talk to somebody and you look in theireyes and they're reevaluating this person and they're like, never invite thisperson to your home because God knows what they will do kind of, uh, anyway,so. Um, so I, I did this and so what I thought was, okay, that's interesting.
So I'm, I still haven't solved myproblem for where do we move to,

but then I was like,
this is a business opportunity becauseI'm thinking, but you know, we have supply chains, we have manufacturing, allof these things need to run and if there's pandemics and pandemics are so easyand there's so

much data out there and
there's so much, so many peopletalking about it.

I'm not the smartest, but again, youknow, like the dumb person like me can figure this out, anybody can figure thisout, um, based on

data.

And so my view was how do you run theworld? How do you run business in an environment like that? What
do you need? You

need automation and you're
flying blind.

What do you need when you're
flying blind?

If

you're a

captain of a ship
in a fog, what do you need? You
need

a radar, you need a
sonar, you need

data. And so I developed this
thesis for

artificial intelligence or machinelearning

driven. products

that could provide insights tocompanies, uh, across industries, which is kind of

like what led to like,
I guess my thesis at certain ventures,uh, is kind of like, um, you know, similar vein,

uh,

to, to that.

And so

I guess the point is that,
you know, um.

Your

random, weird stuff in your life,personal life can sometimes feed into and

inform you

of a market opportunity. Now, what was

interesting, by the way, during thepandemic was

people were calling me saying, how didyou predict the pandemic again? Explain that to me.

And I was like, no, no, no, you, you
Ali: remind
me.

recording 1 ash: I never predictedthe pandemic. It was a, it

was a probability
weighted model, which was able
to

develop, to demonstrate
that

this is like

a pandemics

possible and therefore. Like youshould invest in automation.

Ali: should
be prepared. Yeah. It's the power ofimagination again. You know, uh, just imagining what the

world could look like
and, and, and then working
back from that. So what would we need
to start building
now?

Uh,

recording 1 ash: just to
like, uh,

to, to move it to the next
level. So. Yeah, imagination isimportant. And so

the point that I was making was we'rebuilding the future. Now, the

thing

is, there are many futures
that you could build
because there's this infinitepossibilities. Why it's important for us to invest in the founders.
Um, and which are the founders thatare successful founders that can tell a story. If you are a good storyteller,maybe on a probability weighted basis, there's another alternative future that
is more likely.

But if you're a good storyteller, youcan create this future. And so I guess just to, to, to go back to like, youknow, like imagination, it's like, how do you predict the future where youcan't,

but you can  

on

a probability basis, figure out
the potential futures and then youback good storytellers who can not only good, tell a good story to you, uh, butalso to their customers.

And, you know, they
are someone who,

and that is what is. like beautiful
about

humans, right? Humanity. I mean, likethe reason why civilization was created was because of our ability to tellstories and, and, and language is so important and telling stories is so
important. And so like,
it's funny, like we, we may have
evolved, but we're still
essentially cavemen telling stories.
Ali: yeah, it's, uh,part

of

what makes us special. And it'sinteresting. I mean, uh, when you say that, because. When I a story that'swritten by generative AI, for example, somehow it just doesn't connect like astory that's been

written human. I mean, even if youtell them like, I don't know, right. Uh, a short story about loss in the styleof Toni

Morrison.

I mean,

it will generate

something, but it just,
it's not like reading
Toni Morrison. It's
just very, it's different in a way, soit's, it is kind of, at maybe I am

hoping that it's part of what makes us

different. Uh,

exactly,

recording 1 ash: I mean, I
would say

like,

you know,

I, I think

about this as well
and, um,

I wonder, you know, are we notsatisfied because

we know

who created

it,

uh, or

what created it

and, and, you

know, like,

because I'm constantly questioning mybiases, um, because the reality

is,

You know, um, I

mean, I, I agree

there is this

un,

so one of the things that makes humansspecial, um, is the unpredictable nature of us.

And, and I think that thatunpredictability or volatility that

we have

inherent in us and the volatility
that we

create around us is what makes usinteresting. And so that, that's why, like, for

example, when I talk to
my children today,
I tell them go creative.
Ali: exactly.
recording 1 ash: not softwareengineering, whatever, you

know, develop

those skills because, um, creativity,I

mean, there are

elements of creativity that you canreplicate, but you know, you can only

replicate

what is today, but humans aren'treplicating today.

Humans are creating the future, ifthat makes sense. And

Ali: Yeah.
Yeah.

Uh,

recording 1 ash: at some point beable to do that as well, but like, not in my

lifetime. I

don't think so.  

But

Ali: yeah. Uh,
but, but this is kind an interesting,maybe study to

ask someone to do, you know, havepeople

blind, uh, test or blind read. Uh,stuff created by humans and by

AI in the style of
the humans and and if they
can, uh, figure out what's
what, uh, because yeah, we
might be biased. Maybe knowing thatthis is created by AI

makes us biased.

So, I mean, going back to the world
of investing,

uh, and Sokna

Ventures specifically. I mean,
you guys have been going at a veryhigh rate. If, if you're making, if

you've made seven
investments, seven
months, that's, uh, uh, you especiallylooking at the size of the fund, that's, that's pretty significant pace.
Uh, so what's the decision makingprocess how do you make decisions?

recording 1 ash: So, um, so first
of all, all

three of us, um, and Marvin, by theway, is also an independent, uh, investment committee member. Uh, you know,because so we want to have as many perspectives around the
investment committee.
Uh, so it's 4

of us on

the I. C. And the 3 G. P. S. Where?Basically the ones

who, who run,

uh, the fund, how it works.
So

I

live in Dubai, I work in Dubai and
I'm looking at,

uh, deal flow. So like I do thingsdifferently. We

all do things differently.
Um, I'm

more network driven, so I
tend not to speak at conferences or dothings like that. I, I prefer to meet with people and meet with
people that are introduced to
be. Um, through my network becausethey're filtered and most of my network know

that I can be a prickly pearsometimes.

So,

um,

I'm, I'm typically, you know,leveraging

my network to, to bring deal flow tome.

And so that, that's kind
of like

my, I guess, silent, uh, way, way
of,

um, uh, of getting deal flow. Um, Ihelp people, um, you know, I help founders all the time. So
every time I meet
or any of my GPs, so we, we have this,um. ethos, which is we, we help the community, we help founders, notransaction, uh, sort of no, nothing, no expectations that it's a nontransactional

relationship where we
will sit with founders, we will helpfounders and we will tell them what we're thinking and we will tell them whatwe really believe and what we really think

about

them, which is

why we,

we said

no, or we

were, uh, you know, like, um, uh, we
walked away or we.
The founders didn't
come back to us because we didn'tagree on value or

evaluation or, or
product strategy

or, or whatever.

And that that's fine, but
we find we do that.
And what we find is that founders willtalk to other founders and they'll be

like.

I need someone to help me and they'llbe like, well, you should talk to Waleed or you should talk to Faris or, youknow, you should talk to Asher and then

we'll

meet them and it's kind of like our,our process.

So, Waleed and Faris are in Riyadh,but they're like, you know, Faris goes, uh, and Waleed also, they both go,
uh, frequently to,
to Egypt. Um, and you know,
like, so we're, we're getting dealflow from, from

the region. Uh, everyone has their ownsort

of ways. well known, very prominent,you

know, he's, he's on this podcast, uh,and, and he's also like interviewed at the CNBC Arabia.

So like, I mean, Waleed's like
the man, right? So, so we all have ourown ways of getting deal flow. What happens is that we bring
in deal flow.

Um, and, uh, you know, we have aperson called, uh, Omar Hamdallah. He's actually based in Cairo. He's
our principal.

He actually runs the investment, uh,uh, process.

So what happens is
when we find That this is
an interesting deal.
Um, so we have these daily check insand weekly check ins where we'll say yes, no, yes, no, yes, no to deals,filtering them out. And then we'll sort of, the ones that we're
interested in, we'll funnel through
to Omer and then we'll take themthrough a process of sort of getting more information. Omer will then engageand get more information from the founders in terms of, you know, theirbusiness plan and stuff.

And then, so what
we'll do is

We'll get this

initial information
because this is interesting and, youknow, one partner has

already talked to them. Maybe
we'll get another partner to talk tothem just to get

a sense check.

And then we'll write a like a sort ofa very thin sort of a screening memo and we'll we'll read the screening memo.
We'll discuss

it.

If there's consensus, then we'll moveit. We need two out of three

votes

to move it to the next level ofdiligence,

or

if there isn't, then maybe we'll havea session with the founder because sometimes it's hard to articulate things onpaper, and it's easier

to talk to

people, especially, as I said, like aprecedency stage. So we do a screening memo and then from screening.
Then, uh,

if we approve

it, then we'll

look into sort of, uh, maybe investingin the company. So we'll do

more due

diligence there. It takes a couple ofweeks to a couple of months. It really depends because sometimes you're ready.You've built the product.

You've got clear

signs of

product market fit, uh, or early clearsigns of product market fit, and you've got some

traction and it's easier
in other cases,

you have

to figure out

and have a debate
about what the future
looks like and

how that. And so

that's where

I'd love to say we have a. We do havethese processes, but we fail every single time.

Uh, either we

do it, we,

we

get there earlier or later and, youknow,

it's depends

on how much it makes sense.
And then we have at the investmentcommittee, we have these open debates amongst the four of us. All four of uscome from somewhat different backgrounds, but we all have been founders. We'veall been operators and we've all been, you

know, in global

markets.

So we know

what,

uh, you

know, like what good looks like. Um,
and, and, and

we know what the

problems are. And, um, what is cool issometimes I'll be very hot about a

deal.

And then, uh, Farris will
throw some perspective,
which will then throw doubts. And, andthat is what I love about this. It's like, you want to get people who havedifferent perspectives into the room so

that you can

make the best decisions for yourinvestors, for your LPs.

And so, yeah, I, I,
I

think I went beyond what you'd
asked

for, which is like the process, butthe process is you come to me, Walido, Farris,

or Omer,

um, you know, or you just send anemail to deals at cyclonaventures. com. Sorry,

this is a

Ali: Right.
recording 1 ash: My fun. Um, uh,just send us

your.

Yeah. So hopefully this is helpful.
And so, um, uh, you send us
a deal, you

somehow get into the funnel and we'llget a quick no or a quick yes. If we can. Uh, sometimes we get a slow no. Andthe reason why we give you a slow no is not. Because

it wasn't

easy to say no quickly. And so we taketime. And so like sometimes I

have, we do, but

when we say no, we actually meet withpeople, I've had this conversation with many founders

and I have to say like.
And I know this may sound reallycheesy, but like, um, and you can't validate this anywhere, but I've spoken toa few founders and I can't mention their names cause I said no to them. Uh, Ipassed on the deal, but what was interesting

was like, uh,

several founders said to me, this isthe best call I've

had.

And,

and it was

so weird because

this is not supposed to be a verypositive call. This is a bad call. Cause I'm telling you we're passing
and I'm telling you why we're passing.

And these are the issues. And they'relike, well, now I have a

roadmap or problems to solve
and I'm going to come
back to,

you know, great.

Let's, let's

do it. Um,

Ali: No, I mean, uh,
I, I

can empathize with those
founders because it's always good
to

have concrete feedback just a vague noor, or ghosting or something like that.  
Um, but, um, you know, I understandthe whole process, but the last

step in the investment committee, doyou guys take a majority kind of vote thing

after the long discussion or is it aconsensus?

That everybody  

has to agree.

recording 1 ash: no, I mean, uh, sowe, we, uh, so we believe that, you know, not everybody gets everything rightall the time. We actually get nervous when we have consensus too early. So ifwe have three of us very excited about a deal. All

of

us get like Spidey sense nervous. Itwas like, Oh, what are we missing here? No, no, no.

That we, we, we got too excited, youknow, and

we need to like

clear the fog of our emotions and thenlook at this deal. So we actually spend more time on

deals where the three
of us have consensus than, than ones,not that,

that only.

So it depends on the check size. So ifit's,

uh,

350 to 500 K. Um, then, you know, two
out of three, two
out of four votes is, is
what

you need.

Um, and if it's like,
uh, you

know, 500 plus to like
a million dollars,
then you need 100 percent votes, whichmeans there's a lot more

arguing and. Conversations
going on about like convincing of thefuture, uh, and we find try different tactics. Sometimes we argued out or dukeit out amongst ourselves. When I say argue, it's like this is healthy.
We're all friends, right? So, andwe're mature. We're

all in our sadly mid to
late forties.

So,

you know, we have like goodconversations and sometimes we'll say, you know

what?

Maybe I'm not the best to convince
you,

uh, we'll

bring the founder in and the founderwill pitch

and, you know, it's a yes or no. So itreally depends on the thresholds.

Um, and then we're, we're trialing,
we're, we're,

we're pivoting, we're trying
different things. We're open to tryingdifferent things.

So

right now we're.

We're actively thinking about whetherwe want to do scout type deals, which are like smaller checks, where just oneGP sort of has conviction and and

they'll go for it.
But, um, we need to think about whatthe risks are, you know,

with that. So, but so, yeah,
so I guess I hope I answered yourquestion there. But

Ali: No, you, you did.Absolutely.

recording 1 ash: Yeah, but I mean,in an ideal

world,

like, even if I have the authority towrite a check on my

own,

and sometimes if you have very, verystrong conviction, you know, those are the best sometimes where nobody elsesees this future, but you, and sometimes you just need to trust your gut, andI, I struggle with this, but I, you know, like, Uh, I think those are kind ofinteresting, but we do think that sometimes it helps to have, you know, asecond vote,

um, where even if we're not
100 percent convinced, we will say,well, these are the things

that I believe

to be true, but there's, these are therisks that

I

see.

And that's also

very helpful because then what happensis that let's

just say I have conviction
on this

deal.

I will take these risk factors from,uh,

Farish or Waleed,
for example, or Marvin. And I will go,I have a, I

now have a target
to go and de risk, right? And so yeah,

Ali: I mean, that'scool. And

it's wonderful

that you can run this process soquickly. All right. So I want to move back a little in time. Um, back in 2018,you were 500 and you were at an

event in Madrid

and you, somebody quoted you assaying, we look for assholes to invest

in.

So. Can you tell me more about thatelaborate more and do

you still think

that

recording 1 ash: Yeah, that was atIE Business School event. Yeah. How did you

find that?

Um, uh, so yeah, what did I sayexactly? Uh, if you

could.

Ali: we look for aholes to invest in.

recording 1 ash: So, um, yeah, that

was, uh,

yeah, I'm not proud of, of, of, ofthat. So actually, um, so I, I have a, okay. So

do

I still believe this? So I used tohave this view and I have, as I get older and hopefully wiser, I have adifferent perspective on, um, on, on, on terminology and language that we use,and also on. On

how I view the world.
And, um, so, you

know,

a holes, assholes, I don't know if Ican swear on, on, on

Ali: Well, I already
did, so.

recording 1 ash: I
used to have this, um, yeah, and Ithink that's an unfortunate sort of term that is actually something that
I don't believe

in. So I, for the longest time, havethis policy that my friends know, which is called a no asshole policy.
And, um, and so what that
means is that I don't
want to engage with people that Iperceive to be assholes and, and I have this no asshole policy with everything,people I do business with, I

don't care how much
money I could make here, um, if, but Ithink that that was unfair

of me

to

label people

as assholes because, and at the sametime, sometimes I felt I am an asshole and I can tell you that there's plentyof people

out there

Who think of me as an asshole.
And I

don't think that they're wrong
because when I was with them and inthe interactions we had, I think I may have been an asshole.
A lot of people think
I'm a nice person. Um,
I actually

don't think I'm a nice person
either. I think I'm a
product of my conditioning and, you
know, you're a product of
your, your conditioning as you growand you develop and you, you know, sort of, uh, you condition, uh, you
get conditioned.

You have this requirement fordopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins.

And, you know, you
have this specific
formula

that you have. Like, so like everyone
has their own.

addiction to their dose.
Um,

and it's a special, uh, sort of, youknow, uh, formulation.

Ali: Cocktail.
recording 1 ash: Yeah. And so I hadmy, uh, dose. Um, and, and that dose led me to help people because that gaveme, so I like to help people and I like to be helpful.

Um, and sometimes when
I'm

helpful, I'm telling people withradical candor. Uh, what

I truly believe

And also I am quite passionate whenI'm talking about something. I really get very passionate and sometimes mypassion and

my radical candor,
um, may lead people to believe thatI'm an asshole.

And the reason I say this
is because

there have been times when my wife haswalked into my study when I'm talking to somebody and she's like,
honey, hey, great bye. What are
you

doing? Like, how can
you talk to this person this way? AndI'm like, no, this

is actually a friend, a founder
friend that I'm talking to.
And she's like, really?
Because it sounded like you hate thisperson. And you know,

the founder's like
laughing and I'm laughing and I'm likeembarrassed. Anyway, sorry, I

didn't

answer your question. But like, Iwanted to like, set the context

of, of

of my

Ali: hmm. Mm
hmm.

recording 1 ash: on of dose and,and, and,

and how,

how we behave and, and how we need tobe conscious

about how we

behave.

And, and so then getting to like that,no asshole policy, I started thinking, do you

know, I met people that
at this point in time
with

me, like there's so
many environmental factors that
lead to them behaving in
a particular way. God knows what'sgoing on in your life.

What's God knows what's going on in mylife today.

Uh, what happened? And, and there's somany. Things that

are going on.

So I think everyone has the ability tobe an asshole at some point in their life, and I

think that that was
unfair

of me to

call people assholes. Yes or no.Right.

But.

I have a, I

have a,

I pivoted my, my

theory now

to, to, to, uh, uh, another
sort of, uh,

belief, which is everyone has theirown frequency,

right?

You have your frequency, I have myfrequency, maybe

I think

you and I, based on our previousconversations,

I feel like we have
complimentary frequencies. And so my
view is

you should find people that are oncompatible

frequencies.

And work with people that are oncompatible frequencies. And

if you

come across people that are
incompatible, uh,
to your frequency,
that's okay.

Help them get to people
that are on compatible
frequencies. Because when, and, andnow that I do this, what's interesting

is

that the people that are onincompatible frequencies

to.

Tend to be more helpful to me thanpeople who are

on compatible

frequencies, which is so interesting.Like, you know, I was, I was introduced to so many interesting people by
people

who were on incompatible frequencies.
And the reason why they introduced meto

those people was

because they appreciated my radicalcandor and my help and support, and they wanted to return them. And so theywere

not as transactional as I thought,
you know, some people
believe in.

Transactions and transactions aremonetary or equity based, but sometimes these transactions can
be in different

forms.

And so I guess my point is like,
I'm, I'm non transactional and
sometimes I come across people that
are very transactional and I thinkthat

even then I find actually eventransactional people, um, can bring value. So I guess my point is less hate andmore acceptance and, and, and just like understanding people.
and their frequencies. That's just onething I'll

say. And then

when

you do that, then you find that
sometimes you're even open toinvesting in somebody who is an incompatible frequency. And the
reason why

is because it gives you something, awindow to an environment or an

opportunity

that you would never have been able to

see

unless you had been able to engagewith.

Their frequency and see through them.I don't know if I made sense. It's like a lot of psycho  

babble

Ali: And I think, youknow, you can

only be open to these people who areat a different frequency when you're conscious of

this. You know fact that
people

can be compatible or
incompatible and this is is
not but but their difference isSomething

that

could you know introduce me tosomething

new

and I might say that there is some
truth to What

you said back in 2018 if you kind ofchange

assholes for contrarians,
you know people who are willing to Sayno To what the mainstream is saying or go against what, you know, most stronglyheld beliefs are and stuff like that.

People

who have that ability
or

tendency of independent
thought are probably more likely to begood

founders.

recording 1 ash: yeah, so I meanthe yeah,

so good. Thank you for clarifying thatSo like

I guess what I would say is
like what was I trying to do in ie
at the time? I was meeting all theseMBA graduates and what I was trying to do

was a

Using bad language to shock
them

because you need to shock them andsort of unsettle them and take them

out of their comfort
zone.

So that's one of the things that
I

was doing. And what the other thing Iwas doing was saying, and maybe poor choice of words, but what is really sayingwas, if you have

a belief

and you're the only person that hasthat belief, that's okay. And if it takes whatever emotion, if it takes likethe most negative emotion that you can

think of, like

being an asshole, I'm not saying thatI, I said, I recommend that you do that.

But my point was even because thesepeople were nice people. So my point was, if it means that
you will have to

be an asshole, then be an asshole andgo and prove everyone wrong. But obviously there are better ways to do
it. But

there was, I, sometimes I take theseextreme cases to kind of like,

Ali: Make a point.  

recording 1 ash: Make Make the
point.

And that was the point that I wasmaking because, you know, Madrid, like Spanish, Spanish people are so nice andthey're so friendly. So they were shocked, uh, at, at all of this, but
I think the point
was.

Ali: The very thought
of it. I also saw a video
of you

speaking very

highly of the SAS
model and, you know, like talkingabout it as like almost an optimal business model. Can you tell me more aboutthat and why you think that and how you think through it?

recording 1 ash: So,
um,

you know,

I mean, so my beliefs
are, so I'm a product
of my conditioning.
And, you know, if I think about myprofessional conditioning,

you know, in

the late nine 98, 99,
early two thousands,
that's how

I got my,

my sort of start. I had no money. Iwas relying on credit cards, um, that I had and

I was, I was living and
I had nothing, no network, no money,nada.

And, um, and so

I remember trying to,
and all I had was skills. I couldbuild JSP, Java server pages, applications using JSP and XML, J2EE or whatever,uh, you know, they used to

call it in those days. Um,
That's all I had. And this ability totalk to people

and

empathize with people. So beempathetic, put my ability to put myself in their shoes to understand the worldand their problems through their eyes so that I could then build a solution forthem.

But what I realized was like,
if I were to build a software
for them, that would be like.
It, and then I would spend another sixmonths building a relationship and then selling another one. And this isunsustainable because

I need to pay the bills.
And so I guess what I'm saying is thatfor

me to

convert

my,

like not get a job, first of all, andbe independent, I needed sustainable income.

And the only way

I could

figure out how to do that is somethingthat I used to call pay as you use, which is I'll build it. I'll put it on awebsite. You go there, you log in, you use it, it's available anytime
you want it,

you pay me when you use it. ObviouslyI was lying because it wasn't pay as you use, they were signing five yearcontracts, so.

But they would sign, you know, likemulti year contracts for the access to this solution. And

what that meant was that very quicklyI got to

like 100, 000 in revenue, which isrecurring annually. And the only thing stopping me from scaling this up was
my time

and my lack of resources, because inorder to go beyond that, I needed to hire

people for that, I
needed more capital.
Ali: right.
recording 1 ash: and I
didn't know how to
do that. So, but what was interesting
was that, you know,
10, 15 years later, when I was in aTesla

and I

was like this, you know, executiveand,

and I. I forgot about
application and I
kind

of like shared it with somebody elseand I said,

you know, you

can take over and kind of came up withan exit kind of, uh, thing.

Um,

what was interesting 1015
years later, the

customers were still
there. Now the product had evolved.The

guy who took over, you know, addedmore features and did other things. They were still there every year. And sothe

beauty of

that, you know, um. Subscription, uh,based software. I've just, it's solved

a problem

for me.

So I guess what I'm saying is that
I think

when you talk to smarter investorsthan myself, I think they

will

give you much better answer. All I cansay is that I fell in

love with this model
because it was, I had a necessity andit solved my problem.  
And

then when

I think about, um,
uh, you know, SaaS, it's, it truly is,I mean, I know it's not pay as you use, but it is in the sense that it isavailable when you need it, whenever you need

it, how, you know, it is,
it is, that is what it is.
And so if you want to deliver softwareto your

customers,

you know, one of the most efficientways to do that. Is

online over the internet,
which is now great
and, and, you

know, like be available 24 seven and,and so I guess when

it's like,

I just find that, you know, I trieddoing consumer investing. I tried doing e commerce and all sorts of otherthings, and I'm terrible at, and I never really understood it.
The one thing I can always figure outand understand is, is,

you know,

SAS models.

But then at the same time, you know,what's interesting today is that, you know, I'm an enterprise software. Person.So like enterprise SAS, um, but interesting, you know, with the growth in SMEs,um, you know,

you had B2B SAS and now you have
consumer SAS. So now I am a subscriberto so many different, um, you know, uh, applications that are subscriptionbased and like calendar and zoom and  
all sorts

of.

Application.

So, you know, consumer sets. It's justlike the expansion and it makes a lot of sense because, you know, if you like,obviously, you take your time to make that decision. But when you do, and thenit's available, um,

, predictable revenues. And, you know,as an investor, why

do

I like it?

For all the obvious reasons,predictable

revenues,

sticky, um, and, you know, allows youto

think. So one of the
problems, I guess, is that, you know,
when, when, when you're.
When you're in chaos, you know, thestate

of

flux and you're

trying to

figure things out, you can't thinkclearly. I mean, there's some people

who are very good at
thinking through chaos and that'scool. It's still

difficult.

Right. And I think what the SAS modelallows you to do is to get early customers,

get that step. And then
sort of, you know, like venture is notlike, you know, going into Vegas and throwing

some chips

and you're a millionaire and you arewinning the lottery. That's not venture like building a company, building aBusiness is like one step at a time.

And, and what SAS does model allowsyou to build and then, and then go to the next

head and accumulate going. And then,but

then what it's methodical, but thenwhat it allows

you to do is allow you
to build a team that can then continueto

do that methodically. And so you canthen take stock and you have time to make the right decisions, strategicdecisions around product, around go to market around so many things.
Um, S So,

you know, it,

I, I just like that is an environmentthat's very comfortable for people like me.

Uh, now

there are people who are amazing, aresuboptimal in a SaaS environment, and they are like supermen or
Ali: in a
recording 1 ash: in anotherenvironment. So just, but this is my

wheelhouse, I

Ali: viewpoint. Yeah.Okay.

I mean, going now
to the, um, you know, to the MNA, themergers and acquisitions, uh, world

and you manage

this process

for

at

Salat, which

is a huge,

I think 80

billion company or something likethat. Um, How does a company like that

approach M& A? How does it think
about it? How does it fit into itsoverall strategy?

recording 1 ash: Um, so I can
talk about the time when I was thereand I think, you know, I, I can't say what

their strategy is today.
And I wouldn't like to, um, I mean, Iknow, uh, you know, uh, them, uh, and, and their friends and, and, you know,
so I, I

do know the strategy and I understandit, but

I wouldn't like to talk about itbecause it's not their current strategy is not

what I'm executing.
I can talk to you about sort
of,

you know, when I was there. And, andso what the strategy was. So, um, you

know, like

what is the genesis of the, uh, maybeI can tell you a little bit about the genesis of the, uh,

M& A department
and Etisat International and how thatcame about and how

it came about

was, um, you know,
the UAE, um, government, theregulator,

um, was contemplating opening
up the market

to competition and And until thatpoint was an incumbent, uh, operator. And, um, so there was this idea
that

there will be competition in yourlocal market. And so from a Tesla's perspective. You know, what
do you do now?

Do

you then defend your
position in your

local

market or if your local marketsrevenues and profitability is at risk, do you consider

diversification?

And so the decision that the boardmade was to diversify. Um, sources of,

of,

of

revenue. So that

is, was, was the genesis of
it. Um,

and, and there

are many

reasons for, for having M& Astrategies, but, but that was the genesis of it, just lots, um, uh, sort ofM& A expansion strategy. And so that's when I was

sort of,

uh, brought in.

So if you remember like 2006 and
then do

a launched, you know, it's like, uh,shortly thereafter, it was a couple of years later, but it was, we, we thought,okay, we're going to get ahead of it. And that is why. When the thought processstarted, it was like, well, it may not happen next year or
year after.

I mean, it's not

up to

us, but what was smart about ChairmanImran, who was, who is the chairman and CEO of Avetislat

when I joined, um,
he was a visionary and, and he, youknow, he, a fascinating, uh, uh, person, human being.

I, you know, he's just. Still, I hangout with him and and so learn from him. So he was a visionary who
basically

worked up the ranks from an engineerto becoming CEO and then eventually chairman of the company. Yeah,
I mean,

he's

actually written

a book, which I

would encourage

you to

sort of, uh, check out if you'reinterested in learning,

you know,

the journey

and the rationale for, for that wholething.  

Ali: What is
it called?

recording 1 ash: fantastic.
Um, I, yeah.  

Don't

Ali: the name?  

recording 1 ash: the title, but
I will plug it

later. Actually. Uh, I have
a

Ali: And I'll put
it in the show notes,
of

recording 1 ash: yeah,
yeah. So, um, so anyway, so he, um,him, he built a team around him. So,

you know, no man is an island. So hebuilt a team

and that team.

Um, this view was to basically startthinking about how do we diversify and

where do we

diversify? So, uh, there were, uh,there was Europe, Asia, Middle East and Africa. And so what, what we did was webuilt two M& A teams and I joined

the Europe and

Asia team. And, and there was thisMiddle East and

Africa team.

And, uh, the idea there was. Let's goand

look for

growth opportunities in markets thatare also similarly opening

up

to competition that are issuinglicenses. And, and we will go

there

and we will sort of execute. So, you
know, we did

that in Egypt, for
example, we

did that in Saudi
Arabia, Bali,

uh, and, and, you know, in the MiddleEast markets.

And we found that we did actually verywell. In the Middle Eastern markets, and we're an engineering driven company.Uh, so, you know, like we,

were able

to

roll out

networks rapidly, provide good qualityof service and, and sort of, uh, go

out into the market
and customize the product. So, and Ithink that strategy generally worked well.

Um, as

we evolved

as a company, we found that we hadmaybe spread too thin because we had, you

know, operations, you know, in all theway in Indonesia, for example, which is.

Very far away if you think about it.So, you know, I mean, like on the one hand

you're buying,

you're investing in a company, um, inIndonesia or in Tanzania, you know, like these companies are run by teams,management teams, and then

they have

boards and then they're, you know,
and, and you're,

they're part of the whole family.
But one of the challenges was. Youhave fires, you have problems, and when you have problems, you have to put upfires and there are time zone differences. Um, so by the time you get themessage and then, you know, we can differences and all of that. And then on topof it, how

long does it. Take
you to mobilize a team and fly overthere and if it's like an eight hour

flight

and so like it's like this is verycomplex to manage and so

Ali: course.
recording 1 ash: Now obviously youcan manage it and it is possible to manage it and we I think we try to do thebest we could But my point is like there's a lot of challenges there and Ithink that that's what happened where we grew very quickly We did a lot ofM& A expansion and then we kind of started to rethink whether We were readyfor this.

So, you know, we, we grew into ateenager very quickly, but we're surrounded by adults and maybe we're not readyto be an

Ali: All
right.

recording 1 ash: It takes time to,to, to develop the skills and the core

Ali: Yeah. The, theawkward period

of teenage

recording 1 ash: That's it. Yeah.And so that, that was,

um,

That was the, uh, rationale for mylast deal at, at DeSalt, which was MorocTel, uh, MorocTelecom, which was, um,we had expanded into

many different

markets, and so my
view was,

uh, and, and this is like what we hadpitched to, to the, to the

board, which was that,
We have, you know, we're
a

Middle Eastern company.
We're, uh, you know, based in the
UAE, which

is a multicultural place. And, and so,you

know,

that's great because that allows usand enables us to sort of be

able to go into

any sort of culture in any marketbecause we're so

multicultural.

But at the same time, there are somecultures that we, uh, know and understand better and can manage better.
And there are others that maybe were
not

so optimally, uh, you know, placed.And so, for example, we had a West African

portfolio, which was French, French
speaking, so Francophone. And so therewas like a cultural differences, language differences,

and those complex.
And so there,

My

hypothesis was, uh, that, you know,Moroc Telecom was a francophone, it's

a Moroccan

company, uh, francophone company, uh,that had expansions for regional expansion

And we own Morocco.

Like seven, eight assets. So, youknow, we have the largest portfolio in there, but we're not maybe the bestowners and having coming to that realization that

we're maybe not the
best owners. But at the same time, welike these assets and we

like

these. So what we did is we basically.Uh, and then Morocco Telecom was being, uh, sold by Vivendi.
Vivendi was selling its stake, and so
we

participated in that process. And thepitch

was,

let me acquire a controlling
stake in Morocco

Telecom, so we would expo getexposure. And Morocco Telecom has these expansion, uh, ambitions. How about wesell them our Francophone assets, so they are the best owner for those assets.
So it's like a win win win, you
know. an asset that is
a great asset. It's like anestablished company, cash flows, and, and, and, you know, you know, greatfinancial investment, but also someone that has the capabilities to, andactually wants to

do what

we are struggling
to do.

And so that's kind of
like

in the

end did.

And

so it

was a very complex transaction becausewe acquired the stake

first and then

we.

Sold our assets in, but I'm very proudof, of, of that, um, sort of deal. Um, and then, so I guess
the

point, and I guess a couple of yearslater that that led to that was where there

was

a deal

that I had done in Indonesia where we
had

invested in a company,
uh, in Indonesia, uh, telecomoperator.

Uh, and that we were looking to expandand increase our ownership. And then we found that the owners were actuallyvery happy with the growth in Indonesia and the

growth in,

in,

um, uh, and they had
also ambitions to sort of, you know,become a bigger group themselves. So we thought, okay, we're, we're a minorityposition there.

Now we could have just stayed as aminority position, but it was a listed company. And so here
again.

Sometimes you have to take a stepback. And so, um, what we did in Indonesia was I took a step back and I startedtalking to, um, so this is, uh, 2000

and,

um,

uh,

12. So

2012,

I took a step back. So, you know, wehad the financial crisis and.

Ali: Yep.
recording 1 ash: uh, sometimes youneed to take a step back to make a micro decision in a particular country. Andthat's kind of like what I did. So I, I started talking to investment bankersand, uh, you know, globally trying to understand.

The macro environment,
so to understand what's happening nowwith financial, uh, so, so the whole financial services industry
and

globally, there was this massive sortof just

Ali: Upheaval.
recording 1 ash: upheaval that thattook place.

Um,

and, and now, like, where are we? So Iwas taking stock and what I found was that. European and

American markets were starting torecover.

And when I looked at the Indonesianstock market, which is

an

emerging market. And so the Asianfinancial crisis

is important

to understand because I remembered theAsian financial crisis, because I

was,

my suppliers were Asian.
And they could no
longer give me the credit terms that Ineeded, uh, because of the financial crisis that was going on there.
What

I realized was

that fund

capital had flown to, because theAsian financial crisis happened in 97. So they

had,

they weren't, um, as exposed to thefinancial crisis, the other markets.

And so what happened is capital thenflowed into, uh, these Asian markets that led to an

inflation in,

Asset prices

Ali: That's surprising.

recording 1 ash: in Asia. And so myview was that there's it's only a matter of time that this Capital will
now go back

because

the

cost of capital and the risk is higherin these markets So at some point people want to go back to like lower risk, uheurope and u.

s And so, um, you know, like that isactually the deal that I'm most proud of. It's not as big as the 5 billion, uh,uh, Moroctel deal, but this deal is, you

know, I'm very proud of because
I learned so much aboutmacroeconomics, what fun flows about, uh, sentiment and, and,
and how we're

all interconnected
and interrelated.
So the Indonesian stock market wasriding high,

our stake. Was

worth double what
it

was worth

when we had

invested

and only a

couple of years later. So we sold our,uh, stake, uh, in, you know, into the market. And what's the thing is that ifyou look today, this is now almost 10 years, more than 10 years later, uh, thatwas an all time high for the stock market and for the share price for XLAsiata.

Ali: Perfecttiming.  

recording 1 ash: yeah, I mean. Like

there was a lot of luck involvedthere, but yes,

perfect timing. So, you
know, that was,

that was a great story for me. Uh, Ilearned a lot about, uh, you

know,

how, how the

world works.

Sorry. I,

I

Ali: is,
and

recording 1 ash: easier for me totalk about deals and strategy,

but,

uh, ask me

please, uh, other questions
if I,

Ali: I think it's veryrelevant for, for our time. Right now because you you know, you, you, there'sthis change of, there's this major change

from zero interest rate
kind of regimes in the west to higherinterest

rates. And that is also going to, andit's already

affecting the

ca um, the capital
flows

globally and, and pointing them, youknow, more towards the us et cetera, where it's very safe.
You can make a pretty
good profit and, uh, and that, that, Imean, people.

Need to put that in mind when they'replanning, especially expansion and all that. So, I mean, it's a great insightwith a, with a concrete example. And so for the, but, but moving on from thatto the like startups area,

do

you, it's a lot ever like acquire, uh,startups

or,

and, and if, if so, can you tell uslike a story

of how that

happened and how it was initiated?
recording 1 ash: So
we didn't.

Um, and, and, uh, weren't able to so,um, we weren't able

to, and that's part of the reason whyI felt like, um, you know, I, I wanted to sort of move on because we
were, you know, I'll give you
an example. So, you know, we wereearly and this is very natural, not just

for

itself, for any corporate, this is avery natural thing.

So there's nothing wrong with it. It'sjust, you have to understand it and you have to accept it. And so we were newto venture. And we were learning venture. We were learning that process. Andthe best way

to learn

is to invest

in professionals

and then learn with them. And theproblem that we faced that we weren't able to work with the best, uh, at thetime  

we didn't have access.
Uh, took to those players so that wecould learn from them and we tried to sort of figure out where can we, because
ultimately we work
for our shareholders. I
work for my

shareholders and the shareholders need

a return. Otherwise,
I might provide this capital back to
them in

dividends. Right? So when I say I, Imean, like the

management team, of
course.

Um, so the

idea was,

can we provide

higher

returns by investing this capital? Uh,and learning and so strategic. So it's very challenging in a
corporate to

invest because you're looking
for financial returns and
strategic returns. Why? Becausefinancial

returns, the investor can dothemselves. So

what you need to provide is.
More than financial returns. So what?Why? Why? Why?

We talk about

things like strategic returns. This isnot, uh, this is not, uh, a discount to returns. No. What it means is I need toinvest in

you

and I need to provide my value add.
Which

is that strategic thing so that I canprovide a higher return through my efforts.

Because if I cannot provide a returnthrough my efforts, then I should

not be in making

this investment. I should be providingthis capital back to my shareholders so

that they can then make thatinvestment.

Does that make sense to you? So
as a corporate development, uh,function,

our job is

not to invest.

Our job is to invest and and, and and,do more

than

what they can do  

Ali: strategicvalue.  

recording 1 ash: Which is why it'sso hard to invest funds and be passive. The

idea was like,

no, you invest in funds. So you learnand you learn, and then you spot co investment opportunities that you can thendo. So we,

we got

pretty close to doing severalopportunity investments that we weren't able to take across the line.
I'll give you

an example.

We invested. In I mean, uh, and weinvested in Morocco tell, and I did these two deals in parallel MoroccoTelecom, the deal,

very complex deal. 5
billion deal took 18 months inparallel. I mean, uh, which was like a very small investment in comparison. Um,also months. So, you

know, we weren't configured at thetime

to because the same investmentcommittee, uh, of

the board

was making decisions
that are

uh, Fundamentally changing thelandscape of the organization and this small thing that is so we weren't and wewere it was too early, so sadly we didn't.

But there were some very interestingopportunities that, um, I saw that I was very excited about doing. We weren'table to close, but then that those ended up actually being
acquired and being
very successful

outcomes.

And so I kind of built on an Excelkind of like a you. An anti portfolio where I wanted to, but it went across
the line and I found that
actually my anti portfolio was doingreally, really well.

And that is what I started
to think

about. I thought maybe, maybe I've gotsomething

here. Maybe I've got a
lens and I need to figure it outmyself. And that's when I sort of left, um,

and sort of went into pure
venture. But I know that,
you know, I just thought has now, um,
you know, now

they're mature enough.
And the timing also, by the way,matters. The timing is right. Uh, so, you know, they've invested in, um, uh,you know, and acquired even some companies and I think it's very important andvery healthy for the ecosystem for corporates to get involved, to invest
directly and

also to

acquire, uh, companies,
uh, in the ecosystem.
Now, it's not to say
that we didn't do
corporate

venture capital

opportunities. So I
was on the,

I was the chairman of the investmentcommittee of I'mena and I was on the

board of I'mena

and through

I'mena, we were able to play.
So I, with, I mean,
made investments in certainly
car, for example,
so suddenly cars, a company
that when we saw a Saigon,
the founder, he basically had aPowerPoint presentation

and we

invested a million dollars into thatcompany

and, uh, you know,
in a PowerPoint.

And

I didn't believe

his numbers. And you
know, like I say this to founders, noplan ever goes according to

plan. And I don't mean
that you're not

going to achieve

your numbers.

It means that it

will never go according
to plan. And it's true also of
Saigon. So Saigon, for example, within

18 months. So

he, I didn't believe his
numbers.

I think that I

did

not believe that he was going to beable to achieve the numbers that he

did 18 months later. He had
achieved

the numbers that he had
projected. He had
overshot and he was already EBITDApositive,

sorry, not EBITDA positive,
EBITDA breakeven

within 18 months. So he had exceededhis own expectations

that I did not believe.
So my point is.

Nobody knows, you know, everybodythinks

they know and everybody
thinks they're smart,
but the reality is nobody knows
until you go and you do
it. And so like, um, uh, so I, Ilearned a lot about investing and, and, um, there were deals that I saw, forexample, like curry past

my,

uh, my, uh, my desk and, um, you
know, I learned

another valuable lesson
there. So, you know,
we used to spend millions and millions

and millions

a year on consultants, includingMcKinsey and, you know, all these others.

And

I was a little

bit jaded,

uh, about

strategy consultants at the timebecause we

were spending a lot
of money. But

I remember when the investmentstrategy or the corporate strategy or whatever strategy was being built.
I would have the McKinsey partner come

ask me what my strategy
was, and I'd already done the
work, and

it was all there, and it was
pitched, but what they would do isthey would take my work,

and then they would basically
make it pretty

with their logo, and they wouldconvert my 25 slides to 65

slides, and I mean, they,
they do add value in the sense
that

I didn't have access to theinformation or, or whatever.

The, uh, the, the team
that they have that's able to,
you know, provide
the data to support my strategy.
And,

um,

but

yeah, so I

passed on because they were
both McKinsey.

Ali: turns you off.
recording 1 ash: and
so I was like, well, so that was
one, but

the other thing was also somethingelse, which was I'd

seen strategy consultants who hadnever had any operational

experience.

And so they were telling
me. Or telling people that were
operational about things that they
didn't even know how to do, right?
So, like, you're telling me
how to ride a bike, but you've neveractually

ridden a bike. You know
theoretically how to ride a bike, butyou haven't actually done it yourself.

So, you know, like,
how should I value your, um,perspective? There's some valuable perspective that management consultants
provide, but you know,
I was thinking, and that was a
hypothesis that I had and
or a bias that I had
that was, I think, incorrect.
And

so I passed and I passed for many
reasons. I was lazy. Also, I had mybias

and I was also

lazy

because I didn't

even bother to look into
their

backgrounds. And when I looked into
their backgrounds, I found thatactually went to Stanford and

then after So straight out ofStanford, they actually started,

they had a startup,
didn't go anywhere. then
they all

student loans

and a startup that didn't out. And
so they needed a job. And smartestthing that

have done,

which they

did

was join

McKinsey because,
um,

it expanded, gave them a comp,
but also, uh, them access to and, and,

and,

and a

learning And so

if had.

Not lazy,

would probably said, okay, these guys
actually do have some insights
they are actually have operational
perspectives. And so they could
actually a company. at a lot ofstrategy

consultants

out McKinsey or

Bain whatever, building companies,they would spend as much money as a corporate

would to validate the idea, which no
sense.

should I do

that?

And so I guess

And,

and by the I, I, I a cab
with once and

I,

I of

sheepishly

told him that, um, you know, like, uh,

uh, we were, we

were and we,

were, a,

like a uh, together and, and said todude, like

I'm

meeting first time, but I'm I'm dummythat people used tell about that, uh, you know, passed on you because you're
the, uh, uh,

yeah, anyway,

I, you learn a  

lot

Ali: We'll
So, I mean,

one the lessons thinking of, as afounder, one the ways

at a startup exits an acquisition. So
you

feel, I mean, this perspective veryimportant for startup founders that if want to be acquired, then not just thelike ROI, because get ROI many

as a, as a, corporate,
but it's really about. fit
and, and how

this corporate can really
one plus one

is equal to much two this case.
And

you to story and, and give thisnarrative for this

acquisition to

come off

correctly.

As well be have the timing and havejoined McKinsey, things like that. So

I'm of,

I'm, I'm, I'm to dive
into your at But before I do there's Ijust have to

ask is,

I mean, you're advising fund.
was

founded Downey jr. I mean,
what is

What's he like? And how that come
about?

recording 1 ash: that's,
uh, that's a

pretty cool story.

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