Contact Links
Hasan’s LinkedIn account: @Ameer Sherif
‍Wuzzuf’s Website: https://wuzzuf.net/jobs/egypt
‍Forasna’s Website: https://forasna.com/

Transcript:
Ali Zewail: Welcome to the Startups Arabia podcast. My guest today is Ameer Sherif. Ameer is the founder and chairman of Basharsoft. I generally always enjoy whatever subject I'm discussing with Ameer. So I am sure you will also enjoy this discussion. Welcome, Ameer.

Ameer Sherif: Thankyou. Thank you, Ali.Ali Zewail: So Amir,maybe we can start with like, uh, in just a few minutes, tell us the story ofhow you came to be in this wonderful world of startups.Ameer Sherif: Yeah.So, uh, um, I graduated from, uh, Cairo University engineering back in 2004.And, uh, when I started, uh, when I graduated, I started on doing my master's,uh, same, uh, uh, university. And then I had one of my, uh, you know, uh,influential, you know, most influential professors back then. Um, Dr. HussamFahmy, he was like, um, he just came back from doing a PhD at Stanford and hewas, you know, uh, teaching us this, uh, uh, technical writing course.And he gave us like a task, you know, researching differenttopics. And I landed on entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley. Uh, that was backin 2004 in, in Egypt, uh, it's, you know, startups and entrepreneurship wherenot that common, uh, even the terminology, not even the concept. Uh, and backthen I, I landed on a website saying like, these are the top 20, uh,millionaires under 20.Okay. And I was like, sort of, you know, very surprised of thetitle. And I thought to myself, like, what's, you know, What do people have,uh, over there that we don't have and why shouldn't we, you know, be buildingthose, you know, cool, uh, tech startups, causing challenging and impactful,uh, problems. And yeah, since then I, I started searching for, you know,different ideas, uh, applying to different, you know, back then we had like,uh, startup competitions, uh, trying to get some initial funding and it took melike Four years from then to actually get accepted in a program, uh, which wasthe first, uh, incubator program, uh, run by in, in, in Egypt, which was run bythe government, uh, entity called with the ministry of ICT.And we, we got accepted and started our business, uh, in 2009trying to solve the, you know, uh, the job market and employment problem inEgypt.Ali Zewail: Cool. Sobasically you were like, you started just wanting to be an entrepreneur with aninternet business and you kept thinking about ideas and until you landed onthis one.Ameer Sherif:Actually it wasn't my idea. It wasn't actually my idea, like I, I, I tried, Ididn't have an initial idea. So I, I reached out to some friends who had theirown ideas and we applied with different ideas every time. And, uh, and this wasactually my co founder idea back then, uh, he had this idea. I told me like,I'm thinking of doing one, two, three.I said, yeah, that seems like an interesting problem, which Ifaced myself when I was searching for a job in Egypt back then. We, mostcompanies, uh, when we started, we're still posting their job listings in, youknow, printed news, uh, newspapers, uh, for us, it was, you know, excitingenough, a big problem to solve, uh, yeah,Ali Zewail:Interesting. Okay. So you landed at Etida. Uh, I'm guessing you like created aninitial version of the website, but you know, what's off it's, it's a two sidedmarketplace. So you have employers on one side, job seekers on the other, andyou know, when you first started, this must have been extremely problematic.Companies want to find job seekers on the platform when they join and you know,vice versa. So how did you fix this chicken and egg problem when you firststarted out?Ameer Sherif: yeah.So when, when, when we started, first of all, like we, we, we decided like notto reinvent the wheel. We knew there were like different models out there. Westudied all the best models, uh, everywhere, the top websites in the US andEurope and so on. So, And when we, it took us like a while to get our first,you know, uh, product launched to the market, you know, you know, first time,you know, founders rookie mistake.And we launched in January, 2011, uh, a week before therevolution in, uh, in Egypt. Uh, we, we, we just launched and then we have a,we have a revolution. We had. At that point, you know, we had some internetcutoff for a couple of weeks. We had companies not hiring for, for, for months.Yeah. And so this is when we first launched and even our government fundingback then also stopped because of the, you know, uh, a situation back then inthe 2011, a lot of difficult circumstances.We had to bootstrap for almost three years after this period,almost shut down a couple of times. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, that's, uh, how westarted. And then, so it wasn't just the chicken or egg problem. We had theseproblems and then we worked on the chicken or egg problem for another threeyears until we had like initial traction, 20, 2013 and then 2014, yeah, thiswas, you know, trying to push, you know, on the demand side, supply side, wehad very little funding available at the time, very few There were very few,uh, VCs in Egypt, maybe like one or two, maybe one or two across the whole, uh,MENA region and nobody outside Egypt was, you know, had any interest to investin a country that was at the time very, uh, unstable.Ali Zewail: Right.But did you start with the demand side or the supply side? I'm supposing demandis the job, the employers, right? In yourcase, because they pay.Ameer Sherif: ourcase. Yeah. Uh, the companies are demands and, uh, people and talents. Theseare the, we consider the supply and in a two sided marketplace, You have tostart with, you have to do both at the same time. And we, uh, initially we gotjobs. If, if we have jobs without candidates, companies that wouldn't comeagain, if we have, you know, people looking for jobs without any, would notcome again.If we had to push small pushes here and there, we didn't haveenough funding to, you know, market at scale. So we had to do it, you know, uh,our way.Ali Zewail: Yes, it'sprecisely because, uh, you didn't have enough funding that, that it's reallyinteresting to understand. So I mean, I, I imagine you had to do a lot of stuffthat doesn't scale stuff that doesn't, that might not make sense for someonestarting today with good fundingto start, uh, on both sides. Ameer Sherif: from2011 to 2013. So because we didn't have any kind of funding and we didn't haveinitial traction, we actually had to do some, uh, work on the side, like sortof a service company building, you know, other, uh, you know, smallrecruitments, uh, software for different entities who saw our platform.They liked the product, but they told us like, we need to, youknow, we, we want you to build, uh, similar systems to use internally. Thesewere like large corporates and this was like a big part of the cash that keptus alive for the next two to three years.Ali Zewail: Okay. So,so you went to them, you're telling them, come on our platform. They say, Hey,we like your platform, you know, customize it for us internally. Right.Ameer Sherif: Yeah,itAli Zewail: our ownplatform, so to speak, uh, make us your competitors. And of course you neededthe money. Um, so you had to go for that, but, but you know, you have to getthem jobs, but for your main platform, you have to get, get jobs. Seekers onthe platform, right? Uh, how did you do that? How did you let people know? Orwas it very easy? Did people, as soon as it was their word of mouth, and assoon as somebody found out, they told their friends to get on the platform? Ameer Sherif: Yeah,definitely. It was very challenging at the starts. Uh, we, you know, we did alot of work on SEO to get, you know, organic traffic to the website from bothsides. Uh, what, What we did well is that we, you know, even with a very smallnumber of people on the platform, we, we had, you know, very strong andaccurate matching algorithms from the get go that, you know, that, uh, when wereceived applicants, we would score them and rank them in a way that makes us,you know, uh, it makes the most out of our database.And also one of our, uh, you know, uh, when we received our,one of our biggest, uh, brands or clients back then. Uh, one of the first oneswhere, you know, Vodafone, you know, sort of landed on the website, uh, wantingto try it, uh, you know, probably, you know, organically. And when we got this,you know, first well known company, we're hiring, you know, call center masses,we, you know, created those social media posts.Uh, and we use them like on Facebook and we sort of went viraland this was like the first time, you know, companies like in our space use,you know, social media in Egypt to advertise jobs. And back then before, youknow, Facebook ads was common and organic, you know, content still had a ton ofreach and we had like thousands of interactions on every post organically justby, you know, getting, you know, using the, the, the, the.the company and the jobs and promoting it in some way. So weused to use the company's brands to attract talent. And then this also attractssmaller companies. And then this got us, you know, more jobs and we promotedthose. And then, you know, we just, you know, kept pushing back and forth. Uh,we, we started like in from 2011 to 2012, we didn't charge any money, uh, whichwas, was another mistake.That's when we started charging. Like for, we had like 20, 000Egyptian pounds, uh, of subscriptions per month that eventually grew to 50 KEgyptian pounds and 100, 200. Yeah. It took us some time until, uh, 2013 or 14,when we 2013, when we became sort of, you know, Raymond, you know, uh, ramenprofitable and just covering our, uh, basic costs.Ali Zewail:Interesting. So you say it was a mistake not to charge Money at the beginning,even though it probably helped you grow faster, right? Uh, why was it amistake?Ameer Sherif: Now we,we, we thought that we, we, we needed to reach a certain point until we chargecompanies. And we later on learned that, you know, we could have chargedearlier and yeah, it helps you test the market better. It helps you test, youknow, how people will receive your product, but we did also a lot ofexperimentation on the, on the pricing.One of the things that, uh, we had as a differentiator otherthan the matching algorithm was the pricing. So we had like, we were the firstin Egypt and the region to have, you know, a pricing that is more of SASsubscription, tiered pricing for companies of different sizes on a job site.Uh, back then most job sites had, you know, standard, uh, price per joblisting.So, and we thought this didn't make sense because why make alarge multinational pay the same as a small business? This was the model allover other, other platforms. And we had this, we created this, uh, idea of anunlock where companies would pay only for the number of people, uh, they wouldneed to contact or hire.So a company that's, you know, hiring hundreds, you know, callcenter agents or sales agents would pay much more You know, consume moreunlocks than, uh, a company that's hiding just one person. So we had different,uh, ways of approaching the problem and, you know, it worked out eventually.Yes. One, Ali Zewail: I lovethat there's like no one magical solution that you just, uh, there were so manysmall things that you did that, that accumulated, you know, the contentmarketing and the SEO on one side, improving the matching algorithm so thatpeople will, uh, you know, that would be more effective as a platform.And so you get. better feedback that way. They're playing withthe business model in a way that makes more sense for people. Um, all thesethings, I think, seem small, but really this innovating on many fronts at thesame time can really make a huge difference. I feel you guys did a great jobpersevering through that very tough time, as I heard.AndAmeer Sherif:example, also another, you know, small example of trying new stuff. We had,cause we had limited budgets for marketing. We thought like, how can we engageusers to come again to the website? We have these, uh, email, uh, job alerts,uh, not really job alerts. It's like based on your profile, we would recommendjobs and send them to you.And then we had like the opening click rates were not thatattractive. So we, we did some, you know, extreme personalization on the email.We gave the sender a name and we had like, you know, the email seems superpersonalized. We, we, uh, we named our persona, Nancy. And, uh, Nancy, youknow, she sent those emails and we had like open and click rates and the emailsreached 90 percent almost.And, you know, that was like more than 10 years ago. And today,like Nancy is the most common, you know, most well known famous, you know, uh,you can say bots, uh, here in, in, in Egypt, like hundreds of thousands ofpeople know her by name and Nancy Farid Faya. And this is like, this is a lotof small innovation that helps us, you know, reached very high engagement withour users.Uh,Ali Zewail: it'sincredible how, you know, having constraints can actually Almost, uh, kickstartinnovation and catalyze innovation. Um, yeah, wonderful. Uh, so I mean, you,you guys, you really persevered for a lot of years before things, uh, evenstarted to break even, and there was no venture capital funding available andall that.What, what made you keep at it?Ameer Sherif: uh,yeah, I, we, you know, first I was very, you know, passionate about doingsomething, you know, I, I've seen people do it in Silicon Valley. I've readabout them. Uh, I, I believe that we could do something here and I knew we weresolving a big problem. So it's like, it's, it's not that this is like a smallmarket or people don't use it.Uh, we don't need it like I, I've seen other, you know, similarjob sites everywhere. Every country has more than one, multiple, you know,successful job sites. Egypt, you know, a country with more than 100 millionpeople needs, you know, should have one, a local, uh, platform. So the problemis big. The problem is there.The model has been proven elsewhere. It's just like, we need tofigure it out. And these early few years we had to, because there wasn't enoughfunding, we had to borrow from friends and family and this added even morepressure that, you know, I, you know, I need to, I don't want, you know, myfamily and friends to lose their money they've put with me, uh, their trust andalso the social, uh, pressure from the markets.Others who are telling like, go get a lead job. And like, if Ijust, you know, quit, I would, you know, prove them right. And I need to keepgoing until it works. And yeah, I was lucky enough that, uh, we were able tomake it eventually.Ali Zewail: Yeah, Ilove it. And Amir, you, you strike me as more of an introvert than you are anextrovert. Am I right?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,I'm Ali Zewail: Um, Yeah.So and yet you probably need to do a lot of selling to get was off the ground.I mean, how do you reflect on that?Ameer Sherif: Yeah.So most of our successful fundraising, uh, didn't happen because I'm good atsales or good at pitching. I'm actually like below average when it comes to,you know, sales and, uh, pitching. Compared to other founders, I've learnedthis, you know, confirmed this more even when I went on the VC sides, you know,found that there are founders who are much, much way better than me at doingthat.Uh, but the way we, we, uh, we were able to fundraise waseventually, you know, after getting the traction, you know, people wereattracted to the traction were attracted to the, uh, perseverance, uh, we, we,we had, um, The first, so, you know, uh, sort of institutional or seriesinvestment. We, it was still very small at the time.Uh, so when we, when we didn't find any local or regionalinvestors, we, I started to think like, is there like any crazy investors outthere in the world who would, you know, outside the region would considerinvesting in a country like Egypt at this, you know, uh, state. And I startedsearching online and applying for different programs.And one of those was, uh, 500 startups, you know, did someresearch found that this is like, was like back then at the time, this was likethe first well known Silicon Valley program that did actually consider globalstartups. I applied 2013, um, also got rejected, you know, uh, after, you know,hundreds of, you know, other regional, uh, uh, rejections as well.But eventually there was this, uh, program, we have thisexcavation Egypt flat six labs and they were, you know, uh, flying to, uh, on atrip to our men in Jordan, uh, to meet some us investors. And one of myadvisors back then, uh, called me, Donald told me like, there is this programplastics are taking the founders to our men for, you know, to pitch someprojects.Investors from the us It was like a program called, uh, geekson a Plane, uh, that was run by, uh, Dave McClure, the founder of 500. And I,I, I, like, I knew, oh, oh, this is the, the program that I applied to beforeand got rejected. I was very reluctant to go, actually, my advisor mentor backthen called me, like, he actually got me the ticket to fly there.I was like, sort of on a very short budget and I had completelylost hope in fundraising. He got me this, uh, uh. Uh, uh, ticket, you don'teven have to stay there. You'll go and the trends in the same day in book oflight and the returns from the same day. Uh, yeah. So I went there, like I, I,I, I pitched them and I, he was like waiting, uh, back then, you know, Egyptand Tahrir square was something very cool, uh, around the world.He was waiting, uh, uh, Tahrir square t shirts that, you know,the fonts of four square. Okay. So it was like, you know, something cool peopleall over the world seeing what, you know, what happened in Egypt in 2011, I wastelling him like, please, you know, you're wearing this shirt, you know, makeyour shirt, you know, happy, invest in, you know, make your first investment inEgypt.He was very reluctant. Like, I don't know much about Egypt,like, you know, just try us that we had this traction during a revolution. It'sonly like, okay, just, you know, try applying again. I applied, he put me on awaiting list and eventually, uh, we, we became the first startup from Egypt andone of the first from the region to join a well known Silicon Valleyaccelerator program.Uh, that was in, you know, January, 2014. Uh, and this was likea big breakthrough for us to. Uh, it was just just a small initial ticket was50k for us. You know, this was 50k. This was, you know, big for us, uh, helpedme, you know, pay some, maybe pay some, some debt that we had. And then when wewent there, we went through the program very in, you know, uh, eye opening aswell.We got another ticket from uh, 500 and also got, uh, anotherangel investor from there who was, uh, amla, uh, the founder of, you know, ourdata back then. And yeah. And since then we have been sort of like, uh, thecompany was able to, at last have initiative, you know, some funding and wewere already sort of profitable.We kept growing 2014, uh, 2015, we also did another round, theseries A. Uh, with, uh, European investors who were very focused on, uh, uh,marketplaces in emerging markets. So that was really nice. They actuallyreached out, uh, based on, you know, us, you know, being, uh, uh, you know, outthere on TechCrunch after joining 500 and then we got more and more investors,um, yeah, we had like 95 percent of our investments were, uh, internationalfrom Europe and the, in the U S we only had.One investor, uh, locally that was, you know, in dual capital.We also had, you know, a 15, uh, back then what he ventures with a small ticketmajority of our investments were, um, uh, global, uh, investors.Ali Zewail:Incredible. And I think you were the first Egyptian or Middle Eastern company500 as well. So you kind of opened the way for many other companies, right?Ameer Sherif: Soafter this, you know, in, in 2015 or 16, a couple of years later, 500established their regional presence with an office. in the region. Uh, I didrefer a couple of startups after us that went also in 2015 and 2016. And thenthey, they, you know, they also had some from from Jordan as well. And thenthey started, you know, the regional presence, which was fund 500 falcons.Uh, and then a few years later, you know, there was like 100200 investments from 500, you know, all across the region. Now they haveoffices in Saudi, in Egypt and, you know, everywhere in, in, in, in the region.Ali Zewail:Incredible. Just 10 years. How much progress has been made, but you know, youneed the people who get out there first. Um, so going back to your early days,when, when were you confident that you had more product market fit? What werethe signs?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,the science is that We actually did deliver on what companies needed. We hadlike companies posting their jobs So whenever a company posted, uh its jobs Wetook those jobs We posted them on social media, you know everywhere We did thedistribution to get them applicants and then we had this algorithms.We did some, you know Follow up directly with with the clients.We had a very small team like five or six people for the first like threeyears. Okay. So we had very close interaction with the clients. We did a lotof, you know, iterations like one of our biggest failures, for example, uh,before reaching product market fit is that when I did this, you know, globalresearch of, you know, top job sites and there were countries like in the U Swhere, you know, there's like a postal code.People, you know, are very, you know, used to putting postalcodes, uh, or, you know, selecting, uh, eventually selecting their location on,on a map. I, I took this and put it on, on, on was off for companies and jobseekers to pick their, you know, position on a, on a map in 2011 and 2012. Andthis, this was like a complete failure in Egypt because people weren't really,you know, uh, that's used to, you know, uh, picking their locations or maps andon most browsers back then did not, you know, auto detect the locations that wehad a lot of.Features that we put in there based on our global research andeventually spent a lot of time, you know, throwing them out So we did a lot ofit until at one point Companies were you know satisfied with what we you knowwith our service with our platform with our database And they started payingand you know paying again and so on and this is like, you know, just you knowcontinued Yeah, when you have like one client, you know, there's a saying, whenyou have like one client, you can get like 10 paying clients.If you get 10, you can get 100 and that's how you know you've,people are willing to pay.Ali Zewail: Right.Yeah. Paying customers are the best proof.I think that up till now, I mean, over 1 million people havefound jobs on the two platforms, Wazif and Ferasna. Um, uh, I don't know howmuch exactly right now, but more than 1 million I heard. And, you know, in acountry like Egypt with very high unemployment, that's a huge positive impactthat you're, you're having on society. When you first started, I mean, whatdid, where did you think you'd end up? What did you want to achieve? Did youthink you'd have this impact?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,so we wanted to solve, you know, job search and employment, you know, problemsand recruitment problems in Egypt. That's, you know, we knew this was a bigproblem. Uh, we didn't know like how big can it get. Yeah. Today we have so westarted with wasf which was, you know, white color focused. Uh, the platform isin english uh And eventually we we saw a lot of companies approaching us askingfor you know Blue color color drivers technicians and so on in egypt, you know,this kind of this segment is mostly uh using you know and Speaking in Arabic,we decided that like, we need to have another platform that's catered for this,uh, uh, segment.And this is when we did like our series a in 2015, which wasagain, you know, was like the first, uh, funding announcements, uh, about Egyptin, on TechCrunch, uh, in 2015. And then, uh, we, we launched for us now as,you know, platform on Arabic doing the same, this more catered to this segment,which is a much bigger segment in Egypt.Egypt again is like a 100 million population, more than 30million people in the workforce. Uh, and like the, the white collar sort ofsegments, like 5 million people, the rest are blue collar workers and so onthat it's, it's a, it's a very sizable market. Uh, you know, one of the largestmarkets in the whole minute when it comes to population.So on number of companies, uh, yeah, it was a big market, oneof the biggest, biggest in the region and also in Africa. And today we have 7million, uh, people who are registered across both platforms, looking for jobsand more than 70, 000, uh, businesses, majority of whom, uh, which are, youknow, small and medium businesses that use those for their, uh, hiring.But yeah, we, we didn't have. Uh, we, we had like plans andbusiness plans and targets to reach, but we had, you know, similar numbers. Weexpected to get them like in the first, like one or two years, we had these,you know, ambitious plans and it took us much longer, but eventually we, uh,we, we, we got there.Ali Zewail: Yeah. AndI guess that when you, in 2015, when you got that, uh, Series A, I think it was1. 7 million, right? Uh, which was at the time, like a huge number. Now it'svery normal, but, but at the time it was incredible. Um, you, you have adifferent challenge and different, um, you could say monkey on your back, whichis that you have to grow very quickly because you, now you have this venture.Uh, money inside. So what are the what were the challenges you had to growquickly? Uh, in terms of all aspects, not just team. And what were the biggestconstraints to growing quickly and profitably in our region?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,so back then, so we were already growing profitable, uh, back then, because wewere initially bootstrapped, we have, you know, very strong controls on ourspending. Right. Uh, that's one of the biggest challenges when we got thefunding was, uh, actually our own hiring, uh, because the, the ecosystem wasvery early, very few startups, uh, people don't know what are startups.They're not, you know, they're afraid to work in thesecompanies. They still prefer the large, you know, well known, uh, big techcompanies. So this was like one of the biggest challenges. Also, there weren'tenough people who were X startups before. Uh, so we, we had to get people whoare. We tried people who are, uh, purely corporate, most of them didn't reallywork out.So we decided to, you know, get, you know, young, freshgraduates and teach them what our startups, uh, how to do customer success, howto do product management. Again, back at the time, product management was not arole or title that's well known in Egypt. Uh, same with, you know, uh, designand user experience was not really a thing in Egypt.Success. We sort of like, we're one of the first companies inEgypt to, to, to hire customer success, uh, people we were like sort ofpioneering the market. And this was always a challenge, uh, which, you know,many years later, like now it's like very common to have like hundreds ofproduct managers, hundreds of customer success people.Uh, and it's much easier to hire today for, you know, thoseroles than back then.Ali Zewail: Yeah,looking back, it's so cool to think about how much progress has been done. It'sonly been like nine years since that time. Uh, so maybe it's a, there's roomfor optimism after all. Uh, so, okay. When you going to that idea of adding forus now as a new product, um, you know, having a new product line or line ofbusiness can, can For startup can cause a big impact on your focus, uh,stressing your resources, you know, having two threads working at the same timeis not easy. So how did you make that decision to actually launch for us now?Why didn't you, for example, just create an Arabic version of Wazif or, youknow, uh, why did you, how did you make that decision in general and how didyou manage the product development process?Ameer Sherif: we,made this decision because like, we, we, we believe that, you know, this is,uh, a very different segment, uh, that needs, you know, easier user interfaceand easier experience. Uh, companies have, you know, different or lowerexpectations, uh, on how people would apply. Now, a lot of the blue collarsegment in Egypt even doesn't have, uh, internet access.Some of them unfortunately can't even read or write, uh. And wehad even, we built even a call center with a hotline where people could, youknow, easily dial in and we would interview them over the phone and five minutecall and build their profiles. We, we had data and profiles that were not outthere in any other platform in Egypt.So that was a, uh, definitely, uh, uh, a problem that we weretrying to solve. Uh, yeah, we, we, we, we've had, this is like a. differentsegments is very far. Uh, we had to, you know, uh, build a separate platform.Looking back, it was like a very difficult decision. Uh, we also had, you know,one of our motivations were out of impact.This is a segment that is, you know, more of, you know, bottomof the pyramid, less, uh, you know, uh, underserved segments. Uh, you know, thesalaries were much lower. We needed to help those people. But this was likepart of the, uh, motivation back then we, we, we thought that the market sizeis much bigger, which was true, but then the monetization proved much moredifficult and, and, and running two platforms and building two platforms islike building, running two businesses in parallel, which was very challenginglooking back today, both platforms are, you know, profitable.Uh, but yeah, it took us a lot of efforts. Uh, yeah, I wouldnot advise, you know, other to do the same, uh, to do, you know, run multipleproducts, uh, unless you're, you know, you're, you know, you're Google, you'reApple, you're, you know, of that size, you, you, you, you consider doingmultiple products,Ali Zewail: Yeah. Um,I heard that like the typical like, uh, approach in Silicon Valley is kind ofif you are doing less than 10 million ARR, you don't. Open up a new line andthat or and once you have actually, it's more about market share. So it's likewhen you have 5 percent market share, that means you're in one segment.That's when you start thinking about something else. But beforethat, it's not worth losing the focus. But we are a very different market, andI really think the impact you you guys have done is wonderful. And sometimesgreat things happen only because you don't realize how hard they're gonna be.So that's also sometimes a benefit.Ameer Sherif: butagain, like, uh, you mentioned like some rules for Silicon Valley, like what's,what I learned is that there are a lot of rules out there from Silicon Valley.Some of them make sense, uh, but others don't make sense in our part of theworld. So yeah, you need to figure out, you know, what works, what doesn't.And yeah, it's a very different market, very differentdynamics. The fundraising dynamics are different. The hiring dynamics aredifferent. Uh, even like in Silicon Valley, you know, it became very common forall people joining startups, for example, equity for many years in Egypt andall, all across the MENA region.Employees, when you, when you told someone, like, I'm going togive you equity, you know, early employees, if they're not senior orexperienced enough, some of them back then, like they were like skeptical, likeyou're trying to, you know, uh, you know, uh, uh, like you're joking, how comeI, I'm going to get chairs in the company.I have the dynamics is very different. It's a very differentmarket.Ali Zewail:Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, just, and this is really a general rule. Itotally agree with you. I mean, even if you are in Silicon Valley, not all therules might apply to your specific case and you have to kind of get it fromfirst principles. So, I mean, if we're talking about like new products anddevelopments and things like that, there's something in the world today,everybody's talking about generative AI. Uh, how are you thinking about AI in,uh, you know, in the context of. Basharsoft was for us now. Will we see totallynew products that are serving the same problem?Ameer Sherif: Yeah.So we, we, we were definitely following again. So. You know, uh, I'm nowlooking with a different eye because I've, you know, went to the VC side fortwo years, but that's like, uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm back to the company, uh, onlyfor like less than six months now, uh, with this, uh, fresh I, um, you know,definitely considering, you know, in how to best integrate AI and generativeAI, uh, into our products.We're working on this right now. I'm sort of the type of like,when there's like too much advancements happening, I'm the type who like sortof likes to wait a bit to see like where, where it settles, uh, for, you know,actually implementing things. Because, like, if I started implementing, youknow, I've seen a lot of companies, you know, implementing a lot ofapplications, uh, since, you know, chat GPT came out.And then like six months later, they just. They find out thatthere's like 100 more companies doing exactly the same what they're doing andeven the opening eye and others would launch this completely on top of chat GPTand it becomes completely irrelevant, but the space is moving super fast. Uh,what we like is that we would already, you know, before, you know, this hype,as I told you that we have this, you know, our own Nancy ferry, you know,sending emails very, you know, uh, you know, uh, personalized content.It's. We had, uh, very strong algorithms from the get go, uh,although they're not like using, you know, the latest AI, they were like goodenough for us to have, you know, to have a leading market share in, in, in Asiauntil today. So right now we're like, we're, you know, strategizing how, youknow, the type of innovations we're working on.Uh, for the next, uh, 10 years, we're also integrating, youknow, videos in our platforms, uh, as we speak, um, you know, in, in, indifferent ways, because people are consuming video more, people are generatingvideo more, making, you know, the, the relationship more human and interactive.Some people are, are taking AI to the extreme when it comes to recruiting, likehave, you know, AI interviewed the candidates and so on.I believe this wouldn't really, isn't really the best userexperience. Uh, but, you know, candidates seeing, you know, the, the, thehiring manager and company in video, uh, as asynchronously and, and companiesseeing videos of applicants, even before having an interview. I think this ismake sense using the eye to, to understand the videos and facilitated.It's, it's 1 thing, but then, you know, people need to seeother people. So, yeah, we were trying to integrate, you know, video and theyare in different ways. Uh, yeah,Ali Zewail: That's,uh, very interesting. And I'm going to use the, the, your, what you justmentioned, your time as an investor. Uh, you of course were, for a couple ofyears, you went to the investor side, at Khwarizmi Ventures. And, I wanted toask you, I mean, what do you think founders understand the least when they'repitching to investors now that you were on both sides of the table?Ameer Sherif: so,yeah, there is, uh, a lot that founders don't get about VCs and there's a lotalso that a lot of VCs don't get about, you know, being a founder. Uh, when I,when I went there, so on, on the VC side, so I'm mostly like, I, I, I left mycompany due to burnout after COVID, you know, completely burnt out, had to, uh,step as the CEO of the company.And, you know, take a break. I took like almost a year, uh,completely off. Uh, good thing that, you know, the, the company, you know,continued for almost three years without me and all, you know, and reachprofitability again after COVID, which was a very difficult time for that's agood thing. But again, the decision to leave was, was difficult.I did not leave it, you know, out of choice. Um, then going onthe VC side, I. When I joined on the VC side, it was, uh, early, you know,early 2022, which was sort of the, the global peak of VC and startups before,you know, uh, we had a decline. So it was like from years of bootstrapping andvery difficult fundraising to move on the VC side and then find like companiesfundraising.Crazy amounts very, you know, super easy was like at one pointit was, uh, you know, uh, you know, very, uh, depressing for me to see, likeI've spent my life and then suddenly companies are founders are raisingmillions of dollars of, you know, slide decks and pitch decks. Uh, very easy,very early on with valuations equivalent to my series A and series B back, youknow, back in the time.Uh, this was like one of the initial shocks. Of course, thisdidn't last for long. I felt this was like completely abnormal. Now we're sortof like, uh, more of a normal situation. Still there are some, uh,overvaluations in seed stage, in my opinion, in different markets, of course,difference between one market and the other.But yeah, back to your question, um, I've noticed that, youknow, the, the top VCs in Silicon Valley, they have had like the top hundredVCs, for example, if you looked at it, you would see like 50 percent of themare operating background, 50 percent of them are investment background. That'slike the, you know, rough average.And I think this is what makes, you know, the best VC investorsin to have this, you know, diversity and balance. And, um, what, you know, whatfounders don't understand is that still in our region, the majority of peopleon the VC side are investment and finance background, they speak a differentlanguage and, how they look at teams, how they look at, you know, evaluatecompanies is very different from the way founders and operators think.And also we, a lot of founders, you know, advice sort of doesstereotypes about different investors that this is the way all investors thinkwhat I discovered is that there's a very, very wide, you know, spectrum of howinvestors think it's like, You know, people need to understand who they'retalking to and ask for feedback about this specific investor, what theyactually look for.because like, you need to ideally either customize to youraudience or just have your own story, you know, for everyone and know exactlywhat you're looking for. yeah, I think there's a lot of internal dynamics thatare not clear to, most, founders.Ali Zewail: Yeah. Letus like double click a little on this aspect. So, I mean, when a founder ispitching to an investor, that's, uh, and then with an investment background,what are the, what are they looking for as, as an investor?Ameer Sherif: Again,there's like no single way in all Ali Zewail: Ofcourse. Yeah. But typically, I mean, or, or what's the general kind of averagekind of way?Ameer Sherif: I'veseen, uh, at least in my time, you know, with how resume ventures, which is aSaudi based VC and also seeing the rest of the VC landscape in the region,majority of VCs in the region, they look at the team, uh, you know, very, uh,solid team. If investors who are a bit operating backgrounds, they focus moreon the https: otter.ai Uh, most finance investment back investors don't really looka lot at the products. They look at the team and the market size, uh, and youknow, the trends, uh, uh, why, you know, operating, uh, background investorslook at also the team, but the product and less of, you know, the market. Uh,me as a, you know, uh, founder operator, I believe like the best founders andbest teams can figure out their way, even if the market is small, you know, thebest teams would be able to pivot the best teams would be able to adapt theirproduct and, you know, to different markets and be able to monetize in verydifferent ways.Yeah, I've, I've been there. I know that, you know, most, youknow, forecasts and plans don't really make sense, but a lot of financeinvestment background Investors, they do, you know, look a lot at the marketsizing the plans and so on and so yeah It's a different mindset again. You haveto ask for feedback You know before you approach any investorsAli Zewail:Absolutely. Um, all right. Um, and now you're back to operating the company. Sowhat's the most significant thing that you're investing experience changed inyour operating style?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,first of all, like I'm still involved on the VC side, uh, more of a part timerole supporting our portfolio across different, uh, uh, regions. Uh, yeah,I've, one of the best things about working in VC is the exposure you get. Sosuddenly after being like 10 years or more focused on just one problem in justone market, suddenly I, you know, I got this exposure to Uh, you know, veryclose exposure to 30 portfolio companies and met hundreds of founders in allindustries in different markets from, you know, Morocco to Pakistan, all acrossthe level of exposure you get on the VC side is, uh, is definitely eye opening.And, yeah, I've also seen, uh, different founders, how theymanage and lead their teams. Uh, so part of what what I did with our portfoliofounders that, you know, I had this, you know, uh, regular, uh, casual one onones, uh, sort of advice and sometimes coaching, uh, you know, Being like a,you know, sounding board with it.They just can, you know, open up because I'm an operator. The,you know, the, you know, feel, uh, free and comfortable to share, you know,very fine details, which they might not share with other investors they have ontheir, on their cap table. So this gives me insight, you know, there's no onesingle successful type of how a founder should, should, you know, manage andlead.I always felt before that there's, you know, a right way ofdoing things. And then discover that there's no, uh, just one way of doingthings. There are so many different, very different, uh, founder personas canbe successful and, uh, and companies, the right founders can be successful inwhatever market and whatever, uh, industry.And yeah, when, when, uh, when I, uh, when I came back, uh, uh,part of it is actually to expand the, our platforms to other markets and, Ihave seen, you know, the potential, uh, for example, in, in, uh, Saudi Arabia,uh, is, is, is, is, is big. Uh, although there is like right now, a lot of, youknow, people trying to get into Saudi Arabia, there's still a lot of, you know,open spaces there.Um, yeah. So this was one of the reasons I turned this toactually expand my company. Also there is like the, the dynamics of, you know,the currency exchange and devaluation in Egypt. Uh, versus the US dollar and soon a lot of different dynamics, uh, made me, uh, come back for the currenttime. But I also believe there is like, you know, the next how the next 10years could be like, and where the company could go, whether I continue for thenext 10 years, or, you know, I help build new management to enable the companyto do that.But, you know, I remain, you know, very passionate abouthelping people find jobs. Uh, I think 1 million people, you know, get placed injobs is something I, uh, feel the most proud about, uh, not the amount of moneyI've raised or, you know, anything else, the amount of lives we've impacted.And I think, you know, this, you know, this company can get to the next 10million people hired in different markets.You can eventually get to, you know, IPO, it's alreadyprofitable, uh, for a couple of years now. Uh, yeah, I, I, I see potential anddefinitely from a maturity point of view, having been through all this, youknow, ups and downs, roller coaster, uh, through COVID, through burnouts, goingto the, on the VC side.Another thing also that I got exposed to is on the, uh, publicpolicy sides, you know, I, uh, I joined, uh, it either, which was thegovernment entity, uh, you know, that ran the first incubation program that wejoined, uh, eventually as a board member, uh, three years ago, uh, that wasalso I opening how to, you know, the ecosystem as a whole works.So, yeah, definitely. I'm going back with very differentexperience. I've also. Uh, you know, got certified and how, you know, boardsshould run, which is something most, you know, startups founders don't get, uh,right. Even most VCs don't get it right. Uh, but so definitely I'm coming backwith very different, uh, experience and maturity, hopefully, you know, to, tomake a different type of, uh, impact.Ali Zewail: Great.Yeah. Sounds like even more ambitious. And, uh, so can you tell us about whatis me ventures and what it's a thesis is?Ameer Sherif: So howit is in the ventures is a, is an early stage, uh, Mina focused fund, um,investing in founders from the region or connected, uh, to the region somehow,uh, uh, sector agnostic, it's a 70 million fund. Uh, we invest in, you know,seed and series, a businesses sometimes selectively we do a date stage. Uh,investments as well.We have investments in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt, in the UEE.Morocco and Pakistan, like Jordan, like all across the region. And yeah, themajority of the team are, you know, they're based in Saudi, but we have liketeam members in Dubai, in London and myself, uh, between, you know, uh, Egyptand Saudi.Ali Zewail: Cool.And, uh, and how does the team make decisions? Are they, each partner makestheir decision or the investment committee has to be unanimous? How do theymake decisions?Ameer Sherif: No, no,we, we, it's, uh, we have voting. It's not unanimous. Uh, we have, uh, voting,uh, scheme for that. Um, yeah, I, I, I think what's, you know, most important,you know, about VCs in the region because the region have, uh, so many new, uh,funds over the past couple of years, uh, in the GCC, I think more than 30 or 40funds came up, uh, in the past three to four years.I think what, what really differentiates, uh, one VC, uh, orfund from the other is actually the, the, the human, you know, relationshipthat people, you know, connection and the level of support and value add. Uh,which majority of funds in the region, uh, are still very new at, uh, sincevery few have actual operators on board, the funds that have, you know, peoplewith operating experience in board are the ones that are able to add actualreal value, help companies expand across different markets, uh, help companieshire, we have like in house, you know, talent acquisition, uh, people and soon.So this is actually what, you know, makes, uh, VCs stand out inthe region.Ali Zewail:Absolutely. and and from your like investment exposure, I mean, what are themost promising verticals in the region, in your opinion?Ameer Sherif: So I'musually, you know, less of the type that focuses on, you know, the, uh,different industries and spaces. I'm more towards, uh, you know, the, the rightteam. Uh, you know, when I, when I find the right team, you know, even the,the, the least exciting space, uh, if you find the right team, I would be moreexcited than, you know, just looking at the space and searching, like, who arethe players in this, uh, space.Again, in, in early markets, you know, there is nospecialization for, for VCs as markets mature. You find like morespecialization the way, you know, it's the U S and Europe, for example, whenyou have like SAS investors, you have FinTech, you have marketplace investorsand so on. And, you know, health tech ed tech focused in the region still likemajority of funds are, you know, uh, sector agnostic.Uh, yeah. I'm, I'm more of like I need to look like, be veryexcited about, uh, the team and I also don't, you know, I'm not very excitedabout investing in a space that's just, you know, seeing a lot of hype andexcitement. Usually, you know, it's when something is very hot and very, uh,exciting, usually it's not the best time to, uh, invest in the space.Ali Zewail: Right. Soyou're kind of you let the founder help you discover something new, you know,that they're excited about it. They're uniquely able to deliver on, so tospeak. BackAmeer Sherif:Exactly. They have like very deep insights, uh, in what they're building.Ali Zewail: to the,to your early days at Basharsoft. Uh, you had a co-founder. And he left at somepoint. Of course, as you mentioned, it was very hard. Then you werebootstrapping in the early days and things like that. And you know, they'realways like sometimes there are complications for the co founder, etcetera.Just generally speaking, reflecting on your experience and whatyou've seen in the market. How do you recommend to people founding companiestoday approaching the co founder relationship? What are the best practices forsetting things up? To make it successful,Ameer Sherif: Yeah.Usually there are, you know, uh, founder complications in a lot of companies. Ithink ours was not that complicated then. Like my, my co founder had to leave.Uh, in 2012, again, I've told you, we were almost shutting down in 2011, 2012.So when he was leaving, actually, I was planning to, you know, shut down, youknow, you know, after a couple of months to, you know, finish delivering, uh,you know, some of those systems which we're building for, uh, you know, forsome other clients, but actually he did leave like, uh, on, on, we were, wewere on very good terms until today.But we had other complications on the cap table with otherinvestors who were planning to come in and then things didn't work out. Yeah.But, but in, in general, back then when we started, you know, founder vesting,for example, it was not, uh, really common in the region. People didn't knowabout founder vesting.Uh, this was like some complication, like how, how do you dealwith a founder who was leaving without vesting? But thankfully, you know, uh,vesting is much more common these days. Um, yeah, and it's, I used to, thisused to be very common advice I give to a lot of founders, like people, youneed to have founder vesting, uh, proper founder vesting in place.A lot of people didn't take it seriously, but I think now it'ssort of, uh, common placeAli Zewail: right?Yeah. So that's a great best practice. And, uh, I think, you know, havingchoosing the right co founder is good, even when it comes to breakups. So, Imean, just having a good, uh, open relationship with someone trusting, uh,trusting relationship makes it even even in the worst case makes it mucheasier, such as like breaking up. Ameer Sherif: as I,on the founder side again, like the best advice I would like to tell people isthat, you know, a lot of founders I've seen, you know, we have team members. Inour region who are from the same backgrounds you have like a group of technicalpeople or a group of business people and this is at least in Egypt is somethingthat you know is improving with time and Is definitely much better in moremature markets to have diverse teams The best startups in Egypt and the regionof course are the ones with the most diverse background foundAli Zewail: Yeah.Okay. Going back now to something you said about, you know, that you were thereason you left the operating side of was a for a while was, you know, burnout.And you've been very courageous and very outspoken online about the issue ofmental health for founders. And so why do you feel strongly about this?And how do you think what are kind of the best practices forthat? What do you advise founders on that front? Yeah.Ameer Sherif: Yeah,so it's like very common for founders to, you know, fully focused their 100percent or even 200 percent only on their business. Uh, and if they don'tcontrol, like, you know, uh, they have to, first of all, not define themselvesonly by their company, their, you know, we're humans, we have so many differentaspects.We have, we should focus on our family, our socialrelationships, our health and so on. So when people usually are so obsessedwith one, just their, their startup, put all their energy, work 24 seven, missvacations, don't, you know, exercise properly, don't eat properly, you know,eventually after sometime, a couple of years, you know, people are like, likeyou're like, we're like batteries.Uh, if you, you know, misuse your, you know, laptop or mobilebattery. With time it will, you know, stop functioning and have to replaceyour, uh, battery or your, uh, whole, you know, uh, laptop, for example, butyou know, for, for us humans, you, you can't replace your battery. Uh, you haveto, you know, take care of your battery.Um, and yeah, and, and have the right support system. In mycase, uh, I was like very, you know, obsessed with the business. Uh, I spentvery little time on other things in life and, and this was even before COVIDand after COVID, it became even more challenging. Uh, yeah, when I had thisburnout for like the past final few months before me stepping down, like Iwasn't able even to open my email inbox.For like three months, that was like how burnt out, uh, I'vereached. Uh, yeah, I, I, I, after that, I, I tried, uh, executive coaching. I,you know, spent more time with, uh, my family, you know, when we, when westayed home during COVID, suddenly I have like three kids. I, uh, I like weresurprised to see them like they're sort of grown up and I feel like, like, whoare they.Those guys like I, I, I really need to spend more time withthem. So, so, so my decision to prioritize, you know, my health and, andspending more time with my family and kids, I think, uh, paid off, uh, a bit,you know, better, uh, today, you know, I, I took a well deserved, uh, break.And ideally, if you don't take enough breaks, you'll be, you know, your bodywill force you to take those breaks.Ali Zewail:Wonderful. Uh, the things are working out that way. And, but, but there'salways this like contradiction in the advice given to founders. So, uh, on theone hand, we're told it's hard. You have to work 24 by seven. You have tohustle, hustle, hustle. And you're always selling. You're always, you know,finding ways to grow and you have to grow very quickly and things like that.So, so there's that narrative. And at the same time, we'retold, you know, you, you have to balance your life. You have to There are otherthings don't connect your identity to your startup and things like that. So youthink it's, I mean, where is the middle ground here or, or is it even realisticto, to have balance at the early days of a startup?Ameer Sherif: At theearly days, of course, it's more challenging. However, if you start with theright team, uh, you can at least, you know, distribute this effort across liketwo or three people. In my case, uh, I was like, after my co founder left, uh,you know, I spent the next 10 years as a solo founder. Of course, we, we, wehad like, uh, senior executives and so on joined, but the early Um, you know,usually two or three founders is better with solo founders.It's usually more difficult on this. They, they, they do hirevery strong, you know, early team alongside them. Uh, yeah, it's, they'redefinitely challenging, but what I've realized is that, uh, at some point, likestartup work doesn't ever, uh, end. And, uh, if you just, you have to have likehard, you know, stops in, you know, on, on your daily schedule, uh, on, on theweekend, uh, somehow, uh, so you don't get completely drained, but yeah, it isdefinitely challenging and you need to still manage it and, you know, thingstake time, you know, you have to be a bit more patient, but, uh, yeah, easiersaid than done.Ali Zewail: Yep,exactly. So, um, As you mentioned before, I mean, things came back full circlefor you in the sense that you started with incubator from it. He does set up byit. That was the beginning of your story as a startup. And then eventually youwere selected to be to join the board of this organization. It either thegovernmental organization responsible. For supporting the tech industry, uh, inEgypt, of course, like entrepreneurs aren't famous for fitting in, uh, withgovernment and public kind of roles. So what made you accept this position and,and what would you like to achieve during your service?Ameer Sherif: Yeah,so it was funny that, uh, you know, I was asked to join, uh, the board of ETDA.Again, ETDA is the, uh, IT industry development agency in Egypt as part of theministry of ICT. And it's an entity, the organization that's focused ondeveloping the tech sector, including startups, you know, tech skills,development, and so on in Egypt.Uh, it's been around for like almost 20 years now. And. I, whenI was asked to join it, this was like sort of the same day or the next dayafter I decided to step down from my business, although they didn't really knowit wasn't a public announcement. However, you know, it's sort of like, youknow, uh, just planned that this is, you know, uh, from God that, you know, youknow, I'll decide to step down here.And then the same day there's like a new door or something newto keep me busy. Which was actually very useful for me to, you know, keep medistracted from, uh, you know, leaving my, my, my, my business. Usually it's,if I was very, very, uh, you know, uh, involved with my company, it's like, youknow, my baby for 12 years.And then suddenly I have to step down and completely need toleave it because of this burnout. So actually getting this opportunity to joina board and, uh, have a different supporting the ecosystem. Was very, it was agreat timing and the experience also was very different from running a startup.We, you know, things are super fast, super agile to, uh, set up where we are.It's like a government or semi government like the half of theboard. It's like a 12, uh, members boards, six from private sector, six from,uh, government entities. We have like majority of the private sector where, youknow. banking people and only like two of us who are actual founders of, uh,startups. Um, yeah.And, and yeah, it's, uh, obviously the, the, the youngestperson on the boards, uh, and coming in with a very different minds andmentality, but then, you know, eventually I was able to do enough impacts, uh,by, you know, Telling, you know, people in the government, you know, the needs,the actual needs of the ecosystem as a representative of the ecosystem.Uh, word dynamics are, you know, very challenging at this scaleor very different than from what you would see at, uh, in a startup also savetime. I joined the board of a publicly listed, uh, uh, company here in Egyptcalled easy trends in the trans, uh, transportation logistics space. Wow. Themindset and managing dynamics of a board versus managing dynamics of a startupwas very different and exciting for me, which, you know, led me to, uh, sign upfor this, you know, program, uh, of, you know, uh, to be, you know, certifiedboard member, uh, so, you know, IFC certified program, and also, uh, made meread this, uh, you know, book, uh, uh, Startup Boards by Brad Feld.Which is sort of like translate, you know, what should happenon boards of startups, because the, the objective of a board in an early stagestartup is completely different from a public company, from a private company,from a government entity, and how to manage the best, you know, the dynamics inorder to provide the best direction and control for this entity.Ali Zewail: Right.Cool. I want to ask you, Ameer, If you could go back 11 years and give youryounger self advice based on what you know now, you know, as you're startingyour company, what would you tell yourself?Ameer Sherif: uh, Iwould tell myself to, uh, take it easy.Ali Zewail: Take iteasy. Do you think, I mean, realistically, if you had taken it easy, uh, youwould be where you are now, or would you have like left the company and joineda corporate job?Ameer Sherif: Um, I'mnot sure. Like, I'm definitely not a corporate job person. I, you know, I can'twork really in big entities with, you know, rules and so on. I, you know, Ireally like to be in a situation where I'm, I have flexibility and freedom. Um,yeah, I'm not sure where I would have been. But again, I believe that therecould have been a way where I could have accomplished the same without, youknow, completely getting burnt out.But again, this is like part of the journey. Like, I believethat we as humans, we are like built in a way where we have to go throughexperiences to get these learnings. And it's all about, you know, the journeyand what you do with these learnings. Um And so I'm happy with my journey. I'mhappy with, you know, the mistakes I have, I've, I've made, uh, I, I wouldn'treally change them, but this would be still the advice I would give myselfagain.IAli Zewail: And Iguess part of it is, is also what you mentioned before, like you can take iteasy by simply not connecting your own identity to the startup. I mean,working, still working hard, but, but not taking it like almost don't take itpersonally, so to speak, or, or don't consider it your personal burden. Ameer Sherif: thinkthe, the, the parts that, you know, in the mindsets that, uh, needs to changeis people need to sort of, uh, accept the fact that they control the efforts,but they don't always control the results. Okay. There is, uh, yeah, if, if youbelieve that you are doing your best and a one, once you know that you'vereally done your best, then you should try to relax and, you know, leave the,you know, uh, things to, to happen, you know, best trying to force results andcontrol all the results with so many different, uh, external factors is usuallywhat results in frustration.Ali Zewail: Exactly.Yeah. Trying to control things actually nobody can control.Ameer Sherif: And,and, and there are, you know, uh, you know, times when I did a ton of effortfor a certain outcome. I just, you know, keep trying endlessly where I could,you know, just take a rest. You did your best. Try again tomorrow, try adifferent route. If it doesn't work, just, you know, take it easy. Trysomething else.You know, it's like the way you would do with a, uh, you know,product iterations to reach product market fit. You, you, you, you keepiterating. What's sometimes stressful for a lot of founders is the, you know,the limited timeline, the, the runway. And, but this is how VC is, is designed,which is another, you know, uh, Parts when you ask me.Uh, what do founders don't know is that for every founder,their company is like 100%. And if it fails, it's like usually, usually a big,very big event for them. Although it shouldn't be as tragic as it is for most,most of them, but on the VC side, usually funds, they have like 20 or 30companies, for example, in their portfolio.And the model is built around a big chunk of them actuallyfailing for, for VCs. A company failing is not a major event, unless it's likethe biggest investment in the fund. And just another day in the life of a VCfor a company to fail, it happens, we've done our best. It happens. We have,that's why there's a portfolio to manage.So this is like very different mindset and usually this is whatgenerates a lot of, you know, friction on, uh, boards is that when VCs areinvolved in boards, they have a lot of other companies and, and for thefounder, this is the only company they have. And this is, you know, you createsome, uh, friction,Ali Zewail: Yeah. Andthat reminds me of, I think, a difference, uh, that I feel maybe you can tellme if it's wrong, uh, that in the region versus Silicon Valley, um, in SiliconValley, it seems that second time or third time founders, even if they didn'tdo well with their first startup, they're welcome because these are peoplewho've Kind of learned a lot of things along the way.And now they're actually even more motivated to, to, to besuccessful, to prove everyone that they are, you know, capable of it. Whereashere in the region, it feels like it's not as, uh, it's not as acceptablemaybe, or maybe investors are not so happy to invest in second time founders,uh, who haven't had a success in the first one would, from your viewpoint onthe other side of the table, do you think that's true?Or.Ameer Sherif: I thinkit's, uh, depends on, you know, as the market matures, you have more, you know,second time founders. Uh, then you have more investments in those hundreds andfrom an operator, you know, VC type of, you know, person, I would definitelyconsider, uh, you know, second time founders, uh, in a, in a, in a favorableway.If they still did, you know, did have some traction or have atleast kept a good reputation relationships with people that they've workedwith. I think that the region for many years lacked a second time foundersbecause most of those who, you know, failed early on, they didn't really findenough, you know, funding or support to go with their next startup.And a lot of them. Uh, left the region to work with like bigtechs or, uh, well funded companies in other markets. You have like a, like abrain drain of, you know, uh, failed founders, but this is like in the past fewyears, couple of years, it's again, starting to get better. Because there isagain, uh, more funding has, uh, was available across the MENA region.They have other, you know, uh, startups to, uh, to join orinvestors to invest in you. I think it's definitely getting better over thepast couple of years.Ali Zewail: Yeah, Ihope so. I mean, I know of a couple of very good for second time who would havebeen second, great second time founders, but they end up, for example, joiningKareem or Uber or something like that. And they, they, they created a lot ofsuccess for, for, for these big companies, but really they could have beengreat founders.Um,Ameer Sherif: Again,these, you know, journey is, is, is different. Again, like, you know, ifsomeone went to Kareem for a couple of years, then this was like, it was, itwas meant to, to, to, you know, to be anyways. And, you know, journey, andthere's no time, you know, there's no limit on when you can, you know, doanother startup again.Ali Zewail: I agree.So, um, the thing about venture capital is you need an exit at some point forthe, for the investors. Uh, this has been, I mean, how do you see the differentexit options for startups in our region?Ameer Sherif: Um,definitely they were like super limited, um, uh, in the past years, they'redefinitely getting a bit better. Uh, IPOs are still, uh, you know, rare tohappen. Uh, right now, like Saudi Arabia is sort of leading this, uh, route,uh, you know, this period of time. Uh, they have, you know, an active, uh,public market and a lot of companies lined up to, uh, to go public there.I think companies listing on international and U. S. based, uh,didn't go as well as planned, uh, for some of the IPOs. And there's the M&A market, which definitely should accelerate and is sort of accelerating. Ithink there's a couple of, uh, companies I know of who are. I know of who areworking on building platforms for those, you know, uh, facilitating M and A'ssecondary markets and so on.And yeah, this becomes, you know, more and more important withtime and yeah, that it's definitely still lacking in the region.Ali Zewail: Yeah. Ifyou had a magic wand and there was one thing you can change about the region interms of creating exit options, what would you do?Ameer Sherif: Ithink, uh, part of it is, is like, part of it is maturity from the, theecosystem, uh, and facilitating such more, you know, uh, more of those m and asand and exits. So these, this is like the most common exit is through m and aand secondary markets. Uh, again, you know, you need to have markets wherepeople are willing to, uh, to, uh, to buy and sell.And, uh, yeah, it's, you know, it's a maturity part, but alsoit's support from the, the government. So, you know, our region requires moreunderstanding from the government, how to support and how, you know, a lot ofstartups in our region, in Egypt specifically, they're building things thatcould disrupt and improve a lot of industries, uh, even, you know, the.You know that even in the health tech and ed tech, for example,and everything and, but governments are still not, are there also, again,maturing on how to understand, uh, startups and how to, uh, support them andhow to help them get to IPO, even in, in, in, in the local markets. Uh, I thinkdefinitely need more exits for things to, you know, start accelerating again.Um,Ali Zewail: Nice. Soyou've been on boards, investors, you've been a founder, et cetera. Uh, Whatare the characteristics of the best board directors in your opinion?Ameer Sherif: soagain, for, for founder building a board, ideally the board, the best boards ingeneral are the most diverse. So you need people from different backgroundsthat are hopefully relevant by diversity means like if you're like product, uh,the founders are product oriented. You need someone like who's.commercial or finance, uh, oriented. If you have like, uh, allmale team, for example, you might consider getting a female, uh, a boardmember, for example. Um, so because like this diversity brings in differentthoughts and opinions, which is, becomes very useful. And as the companymatures, like in early stage, if you have, you know, early stage, you wouldneed to have someone who's sort of done it before.Uh, build startups before, uh, at a larger age, uh, or, youknow, series A and B will, you know, you've raised a big amounts of money. Youneed, uh, board members who have been on boards, uh, or chaired boards before,or, uh, have sort of like control or audit experience, uh, because like youneed to have some, you know, initially governance on how you spend.We've seen examples in our region and also globally where, youknow, startups raised a ton amount of money and. If all the, the, the boardmembers are VCs who are like continuously pushing for, for, for growth, usuallythis is not the best, uh, option. Like even, you know, in, in the startupboards book by Brad Feld, like he has this advice of most VCs are very badboards, uh, members, and you'd rather have operating people on boards, givingthe founder actual real life experience or whatever the company requires.Uh, at the different, uh, stage, uh, yeah, it depends on the,the, the stage of, of the business and where it's at, but it needs to bediverse.Ali Zewail: Okay. Um,and if I'm a founder and I have, like, I'm choosing between two or threeinvestors, maybe I'm lucky. I have more than one term sheet to put on our captable. What would be the things I would You would advise me to avoid most if Isee them in the investor while I'm choosing them.Ameer Sherif: Yeah.So investments is like a, it's a, it's a people game. That's like peopleinvesting in people. And from, from a founder's perspective, you're selecting apartner for the longterm. So in, in, in my case, for example, I have investorswho are on my cap table now for almost 10 years. And we still interact, but youneed to, you know, uh, first of all, like ask about those investors, ask otherfounders, uh, about them, uh, to make sure that, you know, they're, you know,supportive, they're credible and so on.And, and also talk to founders who have failed before withthem. And this is like where you really treat the, you know, see that, youknow, the true colors of an investor. Uh, yeah. It tells you more than askingother founders, uh, about them and how they're supportive or not.Ali Zewail: Right. Sofirst of all, I guess your advice is due due due diligence on the investors.Like they do due diligence on you. And when you do ask about the bad times aswell as a good time, so to speak.Ameer Sherif: Yes.Ali Zewail: Yeah.Cool. Um, so, I mean, in what is me, you, you didn't, I think you led theinvestment in blue works, which is an HR company. Uh, so it's kind of in thesame industry that you had a lot of background in. You think sometimes peoplesay, I find it hard to invest in my industry because I know too much about howthings can go wrong. And sometimes it's the opposite. I mean, how did youapproach this and maybe your biases while investing the works?AndAmeer Sherif: So forme, like, um, um, um, I know the HR space very well been in it for like morethan 15 years now. And at one point I wanted to build, you know, uh, you know,build my own HR system. Integrated was was off and this was like part of theplan even before, uh, COVID and, um, yeah, it's been plans changed and wedidn't get to do it.And then moving on the VC side, I also met a lot of other, youknow, HR says, uh, businesses across the region, uh, did, you know, duediligence on a couple of them. And I, I still believe, you know, in this, uh,space, uh, but yeah, and for me, like, uh, Blueworks was a company that, youknow, you know, I know that the market need is there, you know, the foundersare, you know, passionate, I know the industry inside out and yeah, and this isa company I can support, uh, from my experience and understanding the space andalso HR tech is usually Not one of those cool and trendy, uh, spaces and mostVCs in the region don't really get it that much because it needs someone who'sbeen an operator to see how challenging it is to manage operations.And there is not enough, uh, HR, uh, software out there to, to,to support them, but this is where like I have insights, which most other VCsdon't see. And I found like a team that can execute, uh, on this problem.Ali Zewail: I'm notsure if my information is correct. Did you invest pre product? I mean, prebefore the product was in the market or after that?Ameer Sherif: Yes.The product.Ali Zewail: So howdid you gain the confidence like that early and I love that it's a courageouskind of decision.Ameer Sherif: Yeah,so, uh, definitely investing pre product is, is challenging, but again, becauseI know the space and I know this team is passionate enough to solve it, and Iwill be helping them, you know, uh, figure out, you know, what team membersthey need to bring on board. And who are, you know, people I can connect themwith.And they were already speaking to clients and customers. If youhave, you know, the right mindset, you know, you know, the problem you'resolving, you have advisors who've done it before in this space. Uh, this islike the way we sort of mitigated this risk because I know the space very welland, and what they explained to us about what they're going to build is theright product that needs to be built.Ali Zewail: Um,great. Uh, I'm, I usually ask, you know, how you see Bashar soft 10 years fromnow, uh, to end this initial rounds, but you've already mentioned it and I'mlooking forward to seeing like 10 million people hired through. Uh, yourplatforms across the region, inshallah, and, uh, an IPO and an exit. So I'll gointo the closing, uh, questions, um, I mean, what, what book do you like torecommend to othersAmeer Sherif: Uh,what. Ali Zewail: Hmm.Ameer Sherif: yeah.So I actually like one of the first books I read even before starting mybusiness was the, uh, uh, founders at work, which, you know, uh, you know,tells the stories of different founders and their early days. This was like, Iwould recommend this to anyone who is just starting, uh, or thinking of doingtheir own, uh, startup.There is also another book, which is, you know, the, the hardthing about hard things. Uh, I think that what's, uh, also this is useful forfounders who are like around series A, uh, or later stage, uh, maybe series Aor pre series A, uh, it's, it's, it's useful to how to, you know, the, thedifferent challenges, uh, CEOs, uh, face.Uh, there is also the, the growth handbook. This is not likegrowth marketing. It's about like how growing organizations and how like togrow the, the marketing function. With actual examples of, you know, how togrow this function, how to grow the HR people, how to grow a product and so on.So it's, it's like a sort of reference book on organizational, uh, growth.Uh, you know. I read a ton of books during my time and, youknow, also a lot of readings online on how to build a company. But again, if Iwould go back in time, I would advise myself to actually hire people who havedone those things in, in practice, then, you know, trying to read everythingand understand everything on your, on your own.Uh, yeah,Ali Zewail: Thatprobably wasn't an option back in 2014 though. SoAmeer Sherif: yeah.But I, I still would give myself advice.Ali Zewail: um, okay.Second question. How do you unwind and how do you stay energized?Ameer Sherif: So, uh,so I, I, so again, I, I burnt out because. not because of the company, it'sbecause of my role. So I continued, you know, uh, as a CEO, as the companygrew, but the CEO role, uh, evolved in different ways that were not veryexciting for me. Now, when I'm going back to the company, actually, um, I'm,I'm not, you know, involved in running day to day, you know, as a CEO.I'm actually a bit focused on some strategic initiatives andprojects and also focus on products. So I actually get super energized workingon products myself. You know, I'm a sort of a product CEO. When I'm doingsomething that I really enjoy, the actual day to day tasks, this keeps meenergized. Other than that, it's like, you know, spending time with family andkids.Oh. Yeah, so that's like, you know, and I, and, and, you know,discussing, you know, these days are more into understanding, you know, moreabout the human experience and life and, you know, uh, you know, the, the, the,the different journeys and, you know, psychology of people, how they thinkabout things. So this is like, when I'm actually excited about these days.Ali Zewail:Interesting. And yeah, I mean, it's a great, uh, idea to, to like do whatenergizes you and then you'll be happy while you're working. So, uh, that'sgreat. I was just hearing about, you know, um, uh, Phil Knight, who was thefounder of Nike and his biography was like, he used to sell mutual funds andinsurance and things like that. And he was very bad at that. And then when hedid his, his shoes and he would sell them, he would actually find it very easyto sell them because he loved running. Uh, and so he was energized by, byselling them. So it was the same action, but, but it made a huge difference,uh, that he loved what he was doing. Uh, so, uh, next question, who do youthink uh, we could have, we should have as guests on the podcast.Ameer Sherif: So, uh,there is someone, um. Uh, I've known recently when I joined the board in Etida,I was, uh, thought the board member and the other, the only other founder onthe board with me, um, Dr. Hesham Haddara. I'm not sure if you know him or not.He's like, he's the founder of a company called Cywave there. You know, the,it's a deep tech company.He's sort of like the godfather of semiconductor businesses inEgypt. Um, he's, um, worked with different companies, advise a lot of, uh,companies in Egypt in this space. Also, people get, you know, surprised, uh, toknow that there is a semiconductor industry in Egypt. Uh, but actually this isa space where Egypt had probably the most of exits, uh, in Egypt and even in,in, you know, there's like more than 50 semiconductor, uh, companies in Egypt.And there is a, he recently helped Egypt have its own, uh, youknow, chapter of the global semiconductor alliance, which is like a globalnetwork and has, you know, opens up in very few selected, uh, markets and, andhe has helped, you know, start this in Egypt, uh, a year or two. Yeah, and I also was, you know, involved withhim on this trip to, you know, the program in MIT, uh, over the past two years.And yeah, the guy has like a very deep experience about deeptech, you know, in Egypt and, you know, on, on a global scale, uh, definitelywould recommend, uh, on your show.Ali Zewail: And, um,what question should I have asked you that I didn't?Ameer Sherif: Uh,yeah. You know, what's my definition of success?Ali Zewail: Okay.That's a lovely question. Uh, would you like to answer it now or?Ameer Sherif: I, Idiscovered recently that this is like one of the most important questions. Iusually ask a lot of people because sometimes, a lot of times we assume that.Everyone has like, you know, the same definition of success. Um, at one point,like I was, it was all about, for me, it was about like being the first, youknow, being a pioneer in what I'm doing, uh, raising a lot of, you know,proving that we can raise funding and grow the company, hiring, you know,increasing our headcount, you know, proving this is a big business.And this was like my definition of success in, um, manydifferent times. Uh, the short version right now is like, you know, just, youknow, living a good life, uh, a healthy life, uh, enjoying my family and still,you know, try to do impact. There's of course more details to it, but I thinkthis is like a very important question.A lot of people don't ask.Ali Zewail: Yeah, Ithink there's, there's a good book. Uh, Actually about this, how to, I think itwas called how to measure a successful life or something like by ClaytonChristensen, the guy who did the innovators. So I might recommend it to people,but it's a great question. Um, so before we wrap up, how can people reach youif somebody wants to reach out to you about an investment, about somethingrelated to Basharsoft, about something else? And is there anything you want toannounce, uh, or anything like that? This is like your chance.Ameer Sherif: Yeah.So, uh, reaching me is a bit challenging. Uh, yeah, being the founder of. The,the leading job site in Egypt, uh, I, I, you know, I, I received so manyincoming requests for partnerships or even people looking for jobs, companiestrying to hire, you know, it's usually very noisy on, on my email, my WhatsAppand so on.So this is, you know, difficult to reach even on LinkedIn. It'schallenging. I think the best way not just to reach me, but to reach any, alsoapplies to a VCs is through warm introductions. Uh, people that, you know, Iknow well, or we have in common, uh, yeah. And reaching me through thosepeople, uh, yeah, direct outreach is usually, you know, can fall through thecracks.Uh, but yeah, in terms of announcing things, yeah, it's, uh,we're, you know, expanding, uh, was of. To the GCC and to Africa. Uh, you know,we've helped 1 million people get hired, you know, we're planning to get, youknow, the next 10 million people get hired. Uh, we, we, we help SMEs, we helpsolve employment challenges across the region.Yeah. So that's like what we're building and yeah, we're alwayson the lookout for people to, uh, to partner with, uh, on this front.Ali Zewail: Great.So, uh, uh, thank you very much for your time. I like to close things out on anote of gratitude. So, uh, what is the gift someone has given you that had alarge effect, positive effect on you and your life?Ameer Sherif: Um,yeah, I, I think, uh, we, we receive, uh, gifts, uh, all the time, uh, everyday, I think the, the gift of, uh, of health for me is, uh, the, like, uh, thething I think most people, um, underestimate. Uh, yeah, I don't have, you know,a specific gift from a person that's, you know, this is no gift from God. Uh,yeah.Ali Zewail: Yeah, wealways have to have gratitude to Allah. All right. Thank you very much, Amir.Uh, it's been a real joy to have this conversation.Ameer Sherif: Thankyou. Thank you, Ali. Thank you. Ali Zewail: Thankyou.Ameer Sherif: Byebye.Ali Zewail: Thank youfor listening to this episode of startups Arabia podcast. If there wassomething you really liked about what the guests said today, reach out to themon social media and tell them what you liked. And of course, if you haven'tsubscribed yet, what are you waiting for? You don't wanna miss any of our greatupcoming episodes.Also, please rate us and give us comments on our social mediaaccounts so that we know how to improve. And also tell us what you like. Wedon't mind hearing that either. Until next time, this was your host Addie'swhale.

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