Contact Links
Rama’s LinkedIn account: @Rama Kayyali
‍Little Thinking Minds’ Website: https://www.littlethinkingminds.com/en/

Transcript:
Ali Zewail: Rama Kayyali is CEO and co-founder of Little Thinking Minds, an award winning ed tech company with a mission to close Arabic language literacy gaps. Little Thinking Minds creates digital learning platforms that are used by schools to aid in Arabic teaching. Currently, Little Thinking Minds platforms are used by half a million students in 800 schools in 10 countries in the MENA region, in private and public schools.They also cater to schools in refugee communities. They're targeting over 100 million children in over 100 million globally as part of their vision. They've won so many awards and accolades, including in 2019 winning the Queen Rania Award for Education and Entrepreneurship, uh, winning MIT Solve Global Competition 2022, getting the Innovation Award from the Saudi eLearning Center last year.Rama is an Eisenhower Fellow and Endeavor Entrepreneur and winner of the Arab Women's Award. Enjoy this wide ranging discussion with Rama.

This episode is sponsored by the venture capital firm in yourcapital, and your capital invests in early stage companies that will achieveincredible impact. If you're a founder that fits this criterion, contact theYour capital team on www.inyourcap.com. That's in your cap, E N D U R E C A P,or just click on the link in the show notes.Thank you to our sponsors for making this show possible.And now back to the show. Rama Kayyali: Thankyou Ali for having me.So the story, uh, began, I studied filmmaking, so I havenothing to do with entrepreneurship. Uh, I wanted to tell stories coming outfrom the Arab world, but what happened when I had my firstborn son, I was veryfrustrated by, uh, how much he was surrounded with English language content. Sohis favorite stories were in English.His favorite songs were in English at his nursery. He learnedthe English alphabet before the Arabic one, and it made me.very frustrated and very curious, you know, why in a regionthat has such a rich Arabic language, are we all, you know, gravitating towardsEnglish and speaking in English? And I felt there was something that I can doabout it.I also then, um, my good friend Lemya was living in London atthe time, and she was also sharing the frustration. She was observing that. Youknow, mothers, uh, from Japan, France, Germany, they all spoke fluently totheir kids in their mother tongue. They had access to so much cool content intheir own language.And the kids went I mean, from English to their own language.As Arab kids, we struggled. And this was, I mean, and when we were talkingabout it, we thought, okay, this is a London thing. And then we thought it wasa Amman thing. We started to ask moms in the region. We asked moms from SaudiArabia, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon.And we realized that it was a common pain. Especially with themushrooming of private schools and everybody gravitating towards learning inEnglish. So we thought, okay, we need to do something about it. So we said,let's start creating movies for kids that reflected our culture, our language.And have them engage in the language.We created a movie about animals. We filmed, you know, animalsfrom al bi'a, from the environment we're in. Camels, sheep, you know, theanimals the kids see. Um, we filmed in our backyards. We had the kids phones,we had primitive cameras. We worked with local animators and volunteers, and wecreated the first movie. And we thought, okay, uh, Let's release a tic in thetheater for fun. We told some friends and family and we thought we'll have acozy gathering of 50 people. We ended up having 300 people show up. And that'swhen we knew we were on to something and we were solving a deep pain.Uh, and Little Thinking Minds was born. And we made it ourmission to work on improving language fluency and language and Arabic languageliteracy in the region.And we made the decision to start a company that works oncreating, uh, video content for kids. And this was before the age of contentcreation and social media. And you're talking Taliban 20 years ago. And ourfirst release, our, our, our first release was on VHS tape, believe it or not.So this, this was, this was, this was our first release.And then, and then, you know, as technology evolved, we evolvedtoo. We, we then went on to create DVDs, which we were distributing in theregion. And Virgin Megastores and we, you know, we faced many challenges whenit came to shipping and licenses and logistics, but the most important problemwe faced was piracy.Our DVDs were being sold for 1 in Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan,and in a way we were flattered, you know, wow, these moms really love ourcontent, they want to buy our content, and they're making them, you know, inthe black market, but at the same time, we weren't a sustainable business, andso we had to pivot.And that's when we joined, um, an incubator in Jordan calledOasis 500. You know, that's when we thought, okay, either we closed down thiscompany because this DVD business is not working. We cannot scale this. Therewas lots of piracy. The costs are prohibitive as you, you know, logistics andstuff. And so we thought, okay, why not turn this into a digital business?But because we had no background really in business. As such anentrepreneurship and that was the beginning of the entrepreneurship craze inthe globally and in the region. Oasis 500 in Jordan was one of the firstbusiness incubators and accelerators in the Middle East actually modeled after500 startups.So we were one of their first cohorts. And we went through, youknow, the boot camp. We were like, Are they going to own a chunk of ourcompany? And who do they think they are? You know, we had all those limitingbeliefs, let's say. But then we thought, you know, why not? Let's take a risk.And that's what entrepreneurs do.They kind of. Throw themselves into the fire. So we said, we'regoing to go in, we have nothing to lose. And we learned about businessmodeling, building financial projections, you know, how to marketing, growth,hacking, all of that. And we started to create apps for parents. You know, wethought, okay, let's forget the DVDs and create apps for parents.And so we, we, we found mobile apps and B2C. So we were a B2Cbusiness focused on parents. We raised funds from angel investors. And we hadour first seed round, we started creating apps for parents. And we failedmiserably. We were so bad and we had no money. We were going to shut down thecompany. We couldn't pay salaries, but we knew we were onto something becausewe had 40 million views on YouTube.So we said, okay, we know we're solving a problem. There's aproblem when it comes to Arabic language and Arabic content. But the DVDsdidn't work, the apps for parents didn't work, but we have to find a way tocrack this. And as our kids grew and, you know, they went, you know, they werereading in English, they had exposure to all these amazing platforms inEnglish.We thought, why aren't there any Arabic language platforms inschools? So we pivoted again and we started to create platforms for schools andwe became a B2B company. Um, we applied for, um, we thought, okay, let's createjust like these English platforms that our kids are using. Let's create anArabic platform, which made us really think about innovation and what isinnovation.You know, people think innovation is inventing something new,but sometimes innovation is drawing inspiration from what exists. And we wereinspired by these, you know, amazing platforms in English, these reading appsin English. And we thought we need to take what we see, contextualize it. Makeit relevant to our region.We, we, we spoke to different award-winning publishers from theArab world, from Egypt to Lebanon, to Palestine to Jordan, to the UAE to ksa.And we had all these books that we put under one umbrella and we launched thepilots. Um, we, we, we launched a pilot in, in private schools and publicschools in Jordan.Um, and we ran a business experiment, especially in publicschools in Jordan. We worked through, we were, we applied to an awards, a grandchallenge called all children reading focused on innovation and literacy. And,uh, we won, we were one of 12 global winners and we implemented the pilot in 20public schools in Jordan.We offered a reading application. that had 50 books to 20schools. Half the kids had access to a reading program, and half the schoolsdidn't. Half the students didn't. Kids read twice a week. Within three months,they finished 50 books. And mind you, at the time, there was a floating studythat said that an Arab child reads 6 to 15 minutes a year compared to 18, 000minutes in the West.And that's an Arab child reads one book a year of non textbookmaterial. And in these public schools, kids would take out one book a year fromthe library, which were very, uh, modest libraries at the time. And so the kidsfinished 50 books in three months. And so we had to then write and upload 50more books.And within three months, they finished them again. And then wehad to upload another 50 books. So on average, the kids read 100 books in thatschool year. And their literacy and their reading results were significant.Through this grand challenge for development, we had to work with an impactevaluation company from San Francisco.And they did the study comparing treatment and control. Andthere was a 30 percent improvement in reading outcomes. And that's when, youknow, we thought we knew that, you know, this is the way. This is one way, ofcourse, we can't do this alone. This is one way of cracking the readingchallenge we have in the region.And as a result of this success, UNICEF adopted this program,and then we implemented this with 15, 000 students, refugees, Syrian refugeestudents, and low income students in Jordan. And we created books that focusedspecifically, because that was their specific mandate, focused specifically onsocial cohesion, tolerance, gender equality, and inclusivity.And the results were so positive that now the Minister forJordan wants to scale this nationwide. So, so this is how we kind of, I mean,it's a long answer to your short question, our beginnings. But we begancreating video content. We pivoted to creating apps for parents, and then wepivoted to creating apps for schools, and then we scaled, alhamdulillah, towhere we are today, reaching public school students and private school studentsin the region.And we reach half a million students today. fine. We were, Imean, we were terrified because, you know, when you, when you're married to theidea, you think, this is the way it's going to work. And then suddenly you're,you're saying, Oh, no, this is not working. It's a mindset and you need tochange your whole mindset. Um, so of course we were scared. It was a risk, butagain, this is part of being an entrepreneur.You have to take risks. Um, w why did we pivot? I mean, again,and why did, why did we close on the company? Uh, we thought about it so manytimes. We, we literally, we had, we couldn't pay salaries. We, we were reallyin a very bad place and we, and it was very difficult to fundraise also. Um,again, I mean, education is not a very sexy space to, to invest in.They're not that many impact investors in the region. Uh, it'sslow growing, it needs patient capital. So it's not easy to have people believein what you're doing and in your mission. So that was another frustration. So,I mean, we thought about it, but then when we found this, this grant that weapplied for in the U S and we won it, this gave us, this was the catalyst forus to take this, to take our experiment, what we had in mind, like our, let'ssay proof of concept and run with it.And we launched it in the private, in the public schools inJordan. And because of the success of the impact evaluation, we're like, okay,this is it. This is working. This is actually improving Arabic. Kids love it.Kids are reading, and this is what we need to do. So then we started to pilotit in Dubai, because our large, you know, the largest market globally, not evenregionally, globally of international private schools, is in Dubai, per capita,yani.And Lamia, my co founder and partner, was living in Dubai. So,and, and they, and they suffered the most from this problem because of theexpats living in Dubai. A lot of Arabs live there, but they don't speak Arabic.So, uh, and Arabic is compulsory. So we ran a pilot in Dubai and we, becausethere are similar products, math, English, science, Arabic was the natural, itwas the natural, you know, continuation of that.And so schools subscribed, you know, they're very forwardthinking. They're very technically advanced. They have good internetpenetration. They have, they have computer labs in schools. So they were veryreceptive to the idea. And as we saw it succeeding in Dubai, we started to. Youknow, that's when we fundraised our series A, because now we had a successfulbusiness.We were able to find investors who believed in our mission, andwe were able then to, to, to grow the company, grow the team, uh, grow thecontent. Um, now we're a team of 16, four countries, and we were able to scale.Um, and our biggest markets today are UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, because,uh, again, lots of international schools, very technical technology enabled.But I have to say, you know, after COVID also, the reception toonline platforms and hybrid learning also helped us, help more schools become.Exactly. Accelerates our growth. And so now, um, we're growing not only in theGCC, but in the MENA region overall. Yeah, it was always subscription becausewe looked at what schools are used to. This is how they use their Englishplatforms or math platforms. It's always subscription based, but when we workwith government product projects, so we're also we work with the JordanianMinistry of Education, we were also adopted by the Qatari Ministry ofEducation, and they're using our platforms as an Arabic resource, not only asan Arabic language tool, but as a resource.So if you want to do research about climate change, you use ourplatform to find books about climate change. Um, so, but these more areSometimes project based, sometimes subscription, it depends on, you know, theduration, the scope. So, but it was always, I mean, subscription is what worksin school context and with students.It's what makes sense.It is, it is, yes. Because it's, yeah, it's recurring. But,yeah, I mean, there's always, um, It's an annual subscription versus monthly,uh, and schools always have limited budgets. So it doesn't mean, you know,there, there's lots of haggling that goes, that goes, um, but, but, but there'salso, it's, it's, what has been, let's say, refreshing is that schools arebecoming more and more aware of the importance of focusing on Arabic.And they're realizing that children's Arabic is becoming weakerand weaker. And we need to do quickly. Intervention, like we need to quicklyintervene to change this before it becomes too late. Um, I think the commontheme is, and when I decided to study journalism and then filmmaking, I wantedto tell stories coming from the Arab world. I felt, you know, first of all, Iwas a very proud Arab, and I felt that there were lots of stories that wereuntold. Um, and there was lots that even us, we don't know about the airport.We don't know about each other, like we're very in our ownbubbles. And so I felt like there needs to be a way to tell these stories. Andnow with this platform, um, our goal is also to show a child in, let's say,Iraq. What's a child in Egypt thinks? So we make sure to have books from Egypt,and one day, Inshallah, we'll have books from Iraq.And we want a child from Palestine to have access to books fromMorocco. So we want, we want to, like, kind of promote this pan Arabismfeeling, because we all speak the same language. We all have a shared culture,shared culture and shared history. And it's important that we know about eachother. Um, so I think this is the end.We are it's still in our platforms are full of stories and Ialways wanted to tell stories and I always wanted to kind of shed light on theregion. So now we're shedding. We're helping kids understand the region better.Um, we also make it a point on our platform. To focus on themes likeinclusivity, gender equality, social development goals, climate change, becausewe want to have responsible global citizens and we want them to have ownership,you know, and to know that they can make a change.So we try also as much as we can to. Um, to expose kids to somany themes in our mother tongue to know that they can make a change. We showrole models from the Arab world, so people like Mohammed Salah or YusraMardini, the Syrian swimmer who saved the refugees when they were swimming. So,you know, there are so many beautiful stories that we can share.We also have music, poetry, videos. So it's for differentlearners because kids learn differently, but to have a variety of adaptivecontent. For kids to learn in their language about the Arab world. Um,I need a kid, a kid at many points. There was imposter syndromebecause I felt, you know, okay, I'm a filmmaker. What am I doing running abusiness? Right. And, uh, and there's so many skills I didn't have or, ortraining I didn't get, so, you know, especially in finance and financials andmarketing. But I believe like running a company is an accelerated MBA.And so, and sometimes you learn much better on the job doingpractical experience, and you learn more from your mistakes than you dolearning theoretically in a classroom. So, uh, I mean, there are skills I feelI lack, but I feel like I learned quickly. I, um, yeah, I, I, I utilized andmilked the power of mentorship.Um, I milked my friends who are CEOs. So, you know, throughbeing on this journey, you know, I'm part of different organizations. So I havelots of friends who are also CEOs and we learn actually more from each otherthan we even do from our mentors, because we're kind of always in the same boatand we're always trying to find creative solutions to problems we face andchallenges we face.So we help each other a lot. Um, and, and also I surroundmyself with people, sometimes smart, sometimes a kid smarter than me. Sowhatever I lack, my blind spots, I have people who fill those gaps. So, we're atechnology company, but I'm not a technical person. I have an amazing techteam. We build products.I'm not a product person. I have an amazing product department.So it's, it's, it's, it's about surrounding yourselves, yourself with the rightpeople, the right team, the right mentors, and always being open to learningand to learning from failure. Like not to take failure as the end, but to takeit. Okay.And door closes. There's another window somewhere that's goingto open. As long as you believe in what you're doing and you have that passionand grit, and like if you're tenacious, you get it done. You have to have thatdrive in you to keep going. And to battle your insecurities and your limitingbeliefs. I think one of the most important things, things that our team membersneed to believe in our mission. So it's not just about the salary. It's notjust about the flexible working hours. It's not just about, you know, um, thecompany culture, but it's also about. Um, believing in the mission and I, and Ithink I would say a hundred percent everybody here believes in what we're doingbecause they also, many of them are parents and they see the problem and theyface it themselves.Um, I think the other thing is because we're building coolstuff. So we're going into personalization and adaptive learning and AI. Soalso everybody's excited about the new face of, you know, where we're going andwhere we're heading. I think also there's that excitement. So it's also gettingthem to believe not only in what the mission is, but where we are going withour mission and with our reach and our impact. company culture is very important. We are 60 percent female ina country that has only 15 percent employability of women.So come on, we are very much, we have flexible working hours.Our company culture is very positive. I think all these things together,together help us, you know, attract, uh, good people and maintain them. No, ofcourse, I mean, we are, you know, she let's remember Arabic is a language thatkids find difficult. Um, because of the idea of accents and the fact thatthere's only 60 percent overlap between spoken Arabic and written Arabic. Soit's as if kids are learning another language. There is a lot of, you know,Children are resistant to learning in Arabic, so we need to make the contentitself very appealing.So, one way of doing it is personalizing the content. So ifyou're a child who likes horses and likes books about horses, you know, we needto find a way to have more content about horses to cater to your interests. Um,if you're a child who learns more through video than through books, we need tohave a way to have more video content for that age group.So to do that, we need a lot of content and Gen AI is one wayof, of, of, you know, churning out lots of content to have these personalizedand adaptive platforms for students. Um, also, also it's important in terms ofcommand adaptation. So not just personalization, but adaptation. So sometimesthe same book or story in the classroom.is difficult. You know, some child might find it easy becausethey're avid readers and others are going to find it hard because they'restruggling readers. So you want to have different texts and more simple textsor complex depending on the, on the level of the child. So also with Genii, youcan have You know, more customization of what's written.Um, and then with AI in general, I mean, we have millions ofrecordings. We record children's voices. They record their voices. So we needto have more text to speech and speech to text like, uh, language learningmodels for kids, for kids voices, because they're different than adult voices.So there's a lot that can be done.So, you know, there's lots of different avenues we'reexploring. But CS, having a personalized tutor, Definitely that's something weare exploring because every child learns differently and every child strugglesdifferently with Arabic. Some people it's the qawa'id, some people it's the,which is the grammar, some people it's the comprehension.Some people it's the, you know, you know, like the, thepronunciation. Exactly. So, so, of course, this would, the more personalizedplatforms are. The better the learning outcomes will be. And so we are alsolooking into how to employ AI to deliver better solutions to students. Uh,both. Some do, some don't. But there is definitely a much, there's much moreawareness. Governments even are much more aware and they, they ask like, whatare your plans when it comes to ai? Even like vr, ar, you know, where are yougoing with that? Um, so, so yeah, with, with the hype. Also, clients are morereceptive and more excited because at the end, their ultimate aim is for theirstudents to improve.They don't just want, they don't just want to tick a box. Ah, Ihave an Arabic platform. No, they want to make sure because especially in manyschools, there, there are governing bodies, there are certification bodies. Andpart of the certification or accreditation is that they have to get good scoresin all subjects, science, English, and Arabic.Arabic is becoming important in accreditation. And so schoolsnow want to make sure that I don't just want a platform with books, I want aplatform that actually works, that's scientifically proven, that shows me thatthe learning outcomes are improving. And this is what we are obsessed with as acompany.Like this is what our innovation focus on, focuses on. How canwe make sure kids spend more time on the platform? How can we make sure kidsare enjoying the learning that's happening on the platform? How can we makesure that the content itself appeals to all tastes? And how can we show this toteachers and parents?These are the improvements and this is how we're measuringthem. So AI is one way to do that. And there's a big push from clients and fromus to go there. We get this, ask this question a lot, you know, you're, you'redoing Arabic, Arabic. What about math? What about, you know, you're doingliteracy? What about numeracy? You're doing this? What about that? To behonest, we don't feel the exhausted, uh, Arabic. We still feel there's a lot ofroom for growth and there's a lot more work needs to be done.And so we don't want to distract ourselves with, you know,venturing into other subjects. We want to focus on what we do well and growthat and do it even better. Um, and we toyed a lot with the idea of. Anyway,what we did is we built on the Arabic. So besides having a platform for Arabicspeakers, we also have a platform for non native speakers.We also have a platform for KG learners. We also have abenchmark assessment platform that benchmark kids beginning middle and end ofyear and measures their improvement. And now we're working on a platform forIslamic studies because a lot of schools say, okay, you know, most of Arabicteachers also teach Islamic studies and we want Islam that's focused on Uh,like a moderate, um, you know, uh, curriculum that's focused on tolerance,stories, morals, values, etc.And there's a need for that. So this is what we're focusing onwithin the realm of Arabic language. There's more we can do with writing.There's more we can do with speaking. There's still so much that we can do. Um,we, and we also toyed around with the idea of B2C. I mean, it's a whole otherconversation because I want to see the Arabs and diaspora don't necessarilywant what we are teaching, what we provide.Are curriculum aligned platforms or supplementary platforms.They're supplementary to the management, the curriculum, but they arecurriculum aligned and they are in Fusha. The Arabs and diaspora want Arabicand I'm media. So, so, and yes, you can use AI to have platforms in differentaccents. So you can choose.I want to Moroccan accent. I want to Lebanese accent. I want toYemeni accent. You can do that. You know, that's, that's something to consider.Um, but it's a different, it's a different, it's even the product itself isdifferent. And they always tell you the DNA of a B2B company is different thanthe DNA of a B2C company.And the structure, you need a different app, you need moremarketing, performance marketing. It's as if you're building another company.It's always, it's a thin line between, you know, saying, Oh yes, yes, we havean app that works in the B2B space in the Arab world. Let's take it and scaleit, you know, to the globe.No, it doesn't work like that. And we did some businessexperiments, and that's how we learned. We learned the hard way, and what wehave doesn't necessarily work for a B2C audience. Is this something we aretoying with in the future? For sure. For sure, there's a huge opportunity. Andthere's a huge opportunity in Southeast Asia.You have millions of Arab, uh, of Muslims who learn Arabic forthe Quran. And, and there's a market there. So, you know, there's, I mean, wehave lots of plans. Scaling in the region, scaling in Southeast Asia, andeventually the diaspora, maybe expanding in B2C? But we're taking it one stepat a time. Arabic learning our mother tongue is worth solving because Yanisscience says that when you perfect your mother tongue, chances of yousucceeding academically is much higher. When you're good in your own language,you succeed in other subjects, and we're talking about masses. So math. If youdon't read Arabic well and you have math, you have math in Arabic and you can'tread the question or understand it, or in geography or social studies, etcetera, then you're not going to do well academically.So when you speak your language well, chances are much higheryou're going to do well academically. Also, when you speak your language well,chances are much higher you will learn another language with ease or easier. Soit's a, it's a door to multilingualism. People who speak their language verywell, learn other languages with ease.And away from academics. Language is the key to identity,heritage, and cultural preservation. It's the doorway between tradition andprogress. It's our connection to who we are. So it's very important for kids tofeel rooted, to feel they have an identity, to know who they are. In a globalworld, where we're becoming global citizens.What makes you unique? And what makes you who you are? It'syour identity and language is part of your identity. So that's why I believeit's something we need to focus on. It's about the, you know, the poets and thewriters and the art and everything that comes out of our region. And tounderstand it also, language has nuances.You need to understand the language and what it reflects andwhat it, and to read about it. It's a very important to know our language. Whydoes this language, why does this problem exist? There are so many reasons, butif I wanted to kind of simplify, I would say our language is the Glossic, whichmeans that our spoken and our written language are different.So you know, there's Ammi and there's Fusha, there's 22accents, a child from Morocco will not understand a child from Iraq, forexample, and vice versa. There's only 60 percent overlap between what we say.And what we and what we speak. So in a way, a child is learning anotherlanguage. Also, there's the colonialism, you know, the effect of colonialism,which left its imprint on the region. And then there's theissue of, uh, you know, Arabic is the fifth most spoken language in the world,but it hasn't kept up when it comes to innovation, technology and globalism.And unlike the golden ages of Islam, you know, the research publishing inscience And as English became the language of globalism, there was amushrooming of private schools, and there was large migration from publicschools to private schools that focus on English language teaching.And so Arabic took a backseat. Add to that outdated curriculain Arabic. Haqqati'ani kids cannot relate to. They're so old school. Poorteaching methods. Limited budgets in the Arabic department compared to otherdepartments. And then, and then don't forget the influence of social media,TikTok, Snapchat, Netflix, Apple Music, all in English.And all of these factors are contributing to the demise of theArabic language. And so, I mean, we are part of the solution, but it takes avillage, we cannot do it alone. You know, we're trying as passionateentrepreneurs and as a group of 60, you know, from different backgroundsworking in different fields, tech, product, content, sales, everything to dosomething.But it's not just us. It should be policymakers, writers,researchers, educators, parents, musicians. Every there's needs to be a lotmore work done to promote this. And there's becoming more awareness that ourhandlers, there is, we are, there's much more work being done today, but stillwe're far, we're far, far away.And you see it, even when you walk, let's see, you travel toDubai or you travel even in Egypt. I've seen it. Parents talk to their kids inEnglish. They speak to them in English. You go to France, Japan, Germany,Spain, they all speak in their language. So why they refuse, they feel likeit's, it's, it's a downgrade to speak in English.I mean, so why do, why are we so eager to speak in English? Butit's also up to us as, as, as parents. And I mean, English is the language ofglobalism, of technology, of innovation. Yes. No one is saying no, but itdoesn't mean we forget our language. So it takes effort. It takes, we all needto do something about this. and. And we need to remember, my son studiesabroad, and he wants to come back one day to the region, and so what is goingto make him Special. What's going to make him stand out? The fact that hespeaks Arabic. What will distinguish him from another child from any othercountry applying to the same job in Dubai or Sardinia or anywhere?It's the fact that he speaks his language. So, we shouldn'tignore that and not speaking the language leads to lots of brain drain. Whenyou feel disconnected from the language, you feel disconnected from theculture, you end up not coming back, and we all suffer collectively as anation. So, it's something we need to invest in.Oh, I remember, like, personally, I went to Tunis a couple ofyears ago also for our work for I Read Arabic. They were looking at adopting anArabic program because they suffer, because they have, their English is veryFrench induced. They have a darja, which is a, I mean, they have a problem.Exactly. I couldn't understand them.They couldn't understand me. The only way we could converse wasin Fusha. So, it is also a way to bring, uh, Arab countries together. So, yeah,I mean. It's so important and we forget because we become cocooned and we keepfocusing on globalism, globalism, globalism, but this is part of, this is partof us, like Arabism or Arab identity and what makes us unique.So, and there's so many reasons why we need to stress, youknow, the importance of teaching our language. We don't have to all beMutanabbi, but speak it, understand it, read it, be proficient. The famouspoet, Mutanabbi, exactly. It's not a very interesting story. Uh, so when we first startedout, we were inspired by a series of videos our kids were exposed to called,uh, Baby Einstein. And, uh, and these were, like, very simple videos that kidsloved at the time. in English. And that's when we first started out, we werecreating Arabic videos.And what we wanted to do, So in Arabic it was young boy. Yeah,our minds and we wanted to do initially. We wanted to do a video about myfriend and Montana be a rosy. I'll call it is me. We wanted to do these likevideos for kids about Arab thinkers because the, I mean, this was initially theidea. But then when we want to register the company when we went to registerthe website, there was no young minds.com. It was taken to the second. The second best thing waslittle thinking minds, but I know it's long, but actually it's, it's It'scatchy. Like people remember it. Oh, you're the little thinkers. Oh, you're thelittle minds. Yes. It's long, but they remember us. Yeah.Yeah. And it's a journey and really entrepreneurship is ajourney. Um, I want to share, I really believe in what we do. And I feel veryblessed every day that I wake up and come to the office. I love my team. I loveour mission. Um, I love the impact we're creating. And I see where we're goingand I'm very sold on that vision.Um, and, and if I die tomorrow, I will die a happy personbecause I know, I know at least we built something that inshallah will haveimpact. Um, and this is what keeps me motivated mostly. Uh, but it doesn't meanit's all rainbows. I mean, there's, there's lots of challenges along the way. Ithink it's mental health for an entrepreneur is very important.So I work, I work with business coaches. I work with, uh,different kinds of coaches to help me in the struggles I face. It's a verylonely journey. Um, people always only see, you know, what you post onLinkedIn, which is always. You know, the success stories and the news, the goodnews. But behind closed doors, there's always struggles.And sometimes you think you're all alone. And I think I reallylearned the value of being part of a community. And so, I mean, there's lotsmore communities in the region like EO, Entrepreneurs Organization, orEndeavor, or other organizations that cater to entrepreneurs. And it'simportant to sit and share, and to share, because you realize that, ah, you'renot alone.You realize, ah, okay, I'm not the only one who's, you know,having cash flow issues, or I'm not the only one who's finding it hard tofundraise. Because sometimes, I mean, you end up thinking, you're doubtingyourself or thinking, okay, maybe. I'm in the wrong place or this is not what Ishould be doing. So, Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, it's a journey, but whatkeeps me going is, is this, the, the, the, I'm so sold on what we do and I lovethe impact we're creating.Uh, and I think we can make a big difference in how Arabic istaught in the region.Investors, our investors, uh, come in, uh, are, are from theregion. So we have Egyptian investors, uh, Egyptian VC, uh, Saudi VC, anEmirati, US VC, and a Jordanian VC, and of course, angels. Um, usually thestipulation when these VCs come in is that they want us to be incorporated, uh,offshore. So we are a BVI company.They, they, they worry about, you know, local tax laws, etcetera. So, uh, so we're not incorporating Jordan, but we have subsidiaries inthe Arab world, in UAE, Sardinia, Jordan, and Egypt. Um, and you know, I mean,we, we, we, and what we, the way we see, and we see us becoming part of alarger education company. So an education company that wants to come into theregion that already offer English, math, science, and they want to have anArabic offering.We would be a perfect fit for that company or, uh, or manyeducation companies now they want to come into the region because we, we,Imanat and now Saudi are investing heavily in the education system. There'slots more privatization of schools. So, and you know, we're, we're, we're big,we're large population.Um, and so, uh, the potential for growth and for growing theirown products here is huge. They would look at companies like us who have verygood footprint in the region. We've mastered selling to schools. We have 800schools in the region, private and public and refugees. So we work with alldifferent sectors, all different segments.We have boots on the ground in the different markets we are in.We have very good relationships with the schools. Our retention rate is 80 to85 percent. So it makes us very interesting for acquire. So eventually we seeourselves being part of a larger education company that wants to scale into theregion.think for us, because we are an impact driven business, I wouldwant more funding for impact, uh, like impact funding, impact investment. Ithink this is something that's very lacking from the region. Um, we foundreally cool instruments from Europe, like. Impact led financing and differentinstruments that, you know, help entrepreneurs who look at double bottom line.So it's not just revenue. It's not just profit. It's also howmuch impact are you having? What change are you making? We need to all becomeresponsible citizens. It's not just about making money and, you know, havingflashy. Companies. It's about what change are we? It's happening on the ground.And how are you contributing as a VC?So I definitely think there needs to be much more focus onimpact driven businesses. I do think there needs to be more focus also on womenled businesses, like gender lens businesses, like gender lens, gender lens VCs,because women always also bring something new. They're always working on socialproblems.They're always working on problems that go far, let's say, intheir solutions. And they have a different way of approaching problems. Someeven say a more creative way. So maybe we don't grow as big or we don't havethe sexy numbers, but the impact we create and the creativity in our solutionsis definitely very felt.So this is where I feel there is a lack when it comes toinvestment.I, I have two co founders actually, when we first started out,it was me and Lamia. And then, uh, seven years later, we were joined by anotherco founder who was actually the investment. officer at Oasis 500, but shereally believed in what we did in our mission and she came from a very strongfinance background and we were a great fit.We all got along very well. And so she was a natural additionto the team. Um, I think, you know, choosing your co founder is so important. Ithink it's very important that you cover each other's blind spots. Um, I thinkyour skill sets need to be different. So, uh, you need to choose a co founderwho compliments you and who doesn't duplicate what you do.I do think sometimes it helps to have, you know, male, femaleco founder because sometimes, you know, different roles are needed fordifferent conversations, let's say. Um, and I think having honest conversationsare also very important. Um, it's, it's, you know, it's not easy, you know,being a sole, sole founder, but it's also not easy having co founders.That takes work. It's a relationship that needs to be, youknow, worked on, invested in. Um, and so I think, yeah, I mean, it's likemarriage. They tell you that the person you choose to marry is one of the mostimportant decisions you make in your life. And the person you choose as your cofounder is one of the most important decisions to make in your life.And actually, I think I'm not sure what this is. This is thestatistic is a huge number of startups fail because of co founder issues. Um,So yeah, it's a very important decision, but I think like having the samevalues, mindset, background, and making sure you cover each other's blindspots. These are the most important things I would say.And having, being open to being vulnerable and having honestconversations without taking it personally. I think that's very important.Okay. Good question. They always say, investors always say that they invest inthe founder, not necessarily the business. So they believe in you. Um, and Ithink it's very important to always remind yourself, because sometimes whenyou're not achieving your numbers or your KPIs, you tend to get disillusioned,but you need to remind yourself that, you know, they believe in me, even if,you know, the plan we drew is not working, but you know, and that helps a lot.And I, I think the right investors also remind you. They giveyou the freedom and the space, but they also give you the reassurance thatthey're going to be there for you. They don't pressure you with, you know, youdidn't achieve this and you didn't do that. They understand and they help youwork on problems.They're available for you and present. So our investors, forexample, like our board members, they make it to the point. Um, to have a callwith me once a month, like, how are you doing? What's going on? How can wesupport you? Where do you need help? They never pressure us to say, okay, youneed to exit. You know, we have to go back to, you know, we have to, we haveour own, you know, investors that we need to, you know, we need to exit yourfund.Now they're always saying, this is your decision. It's yourcompany. We're here to support you. But it's, it's you and to give you thatspace, freedom and confidence is so important. Um, and, um, yeah, and, and, andI know from conversations with friends, uh, who, who have had nightmare storiesof their investors, you know, micromanaging, interfering, messaging them atnight.Being very aggressive in board meetings, holding themaccountable to their KPIs. This doesn't work. This suffocates you as anentrepreneur. You need to have the freedom to experiment, to try things new andto know that sometimes you're going to fail and, and it takes very mature.There's a level of maturity that board members need to have when they join yourboard and when they become investors to know that this is part ofentrepreneurship.Not everything is going to go according to plan. It's a journeythat is like this, and you kind of have to be there for the long run, and toremember that you invested in this person, and you trust this person to be ableto figure it out. You are there to support them and not to suffocate them.I think it's very important not to only, like when we firststarted out, when I first started out having a board, I was new to this, and Ionly wanted to show the good things. But then I realized that these, I need,these guys are here to help me. I'm not, they're not my teachers. I'm not thereto show them. you know, all the flashy, you know, all, you know, all the goalsand not the guts.And I forgot what the expression is, but anyway, like the gore,you know, all the gold, but no gore. So, so, I mean, then, I mean, it'simportant to realize that your board members are there to support you and theyhave experience because they sit on other boards and demand and they help, youknow, with other companies. They've seen other mistakes that have been done.They've helped companies come out of, you know, you know, trouble they were in.So it's important to learn also from their experience. It'simportant to listen. So not to be defensive. Um, and to accept, okay, that notto take it personal that this is, you know, they're criticizing me or that. No,it's constructive. They're, they're, they're there to support you to help youwork. So I think it's very important as a CEO to, um, leverage the experienceof the board members to your advantage.And I think it's very important in the board meetings is tohighlight the important numbers. So revenue, churn, you know, there are certainmetrics as a SaaS company you need to report on and you need to look at and godeep in if you feel there are, you know, problems with, but it's also importantto, you know, to have honest discussions and guys, I'm struggling in this area,or this is not working out the way we thought, what do you think, whatexperience do you have?And, and to You know, hash it out. Of course, it depends onyour board. We're lucky because we are a cohesive board and by cohesive, Idon't mean we always, you know, we're all, we all get along great. No, we dohave, you know, tension, which is important to have this tension. If you don'thave tension, then there's something wrong.There needs to be this back and forth. There needs to bechallenged. Like, we need to challenge each other and do sanity checks, but,but, but, but, you know, again, depending on your board, but if you have aboard that you manage, well, that you manage the relationship well, that youmake sure that everybody gets, you know.Respects each other are good listeners and are there with thesame mission to help and empower you and help the company grow. Then it'simportant to have honest conversations and to show, you know, the good with thebad and to discuss challenges in an open way. Ithink it's a fine line because you don't want to demoralize theteam and you don't want to, you want to come on, you keep them motivated. Um, Imean, there's always going to be good news and bad news. This is natural. Thisis part of any business. Um, it's important to manage expectations. It'simportant not to keep people in the dark.You know, if there is, let's say when COVID happened and let'ssay there are layoffs or there are salary cuts, it's important. To be honest, Ithink, transparent with your team members, I think the more honest you are as amanagement team, um, the, the team appreciates it. They don't feel they were,uh, deceived, let's say.Um, but at the same time, you don't want to be so honest thatyou demoralize and you demotivate. So I think it's a thin line and it'simportant to manage it carefully when such situations happen. 10? 5? 10? I seeLittle Thinky Minds in every school in the Middle East. I see Little ThinkyMinds reaching millions of students, um, in the region. I also see it spreadingbeyond the region. So reaching children all over the world, globally, andchildren in diaspora. And not only and not only our goal is not only reach,it's not only to reach the millions of students. Our goal is actually to toreach them because we're actually making a difference. There is impact. Arabiclanguage is improving. Kids are comfortable speaking in their own mothertongue.They read fluently. They read with ease. They're proud of theirlanguage. They're connected more to their identity. There is more connectionbetween children from the region. Thank you. Um, they relate to one another, soI mean our ultimate dream and goal is to Improve Arabic and, and I suffer, Iwent to an international school, so even me when I want to read, write, youknow, a khitab in Arabic, I, I suffer, you know, and I force myself to readArabic books and I force myself to be in Arabic book clubs because I need towork on improving my skills and this, because I'm a product of an internationalschool and I, my dream is for kids not to struggle like I struggle and to bevery comfortable in their language.I'm To enjoy reading in their mother tongue and to, and to, tobe proud of who they are and their language and their culture. And ideally, IAlso would like us to be the application that people will pick up when they'relearning Arabic for the first time. So when they're looking for supplementarycontent, books, videos, localized, I mean, people use Duolingo and it's great.But if they want content that is from the region, contextualized, relatable,that they can read and learn from, then we want to be that go to app forimproving your Arabic language skills. One book um, I'm reading in Arabic, uh,the 40 rules of love, which I've read in English, but now I'm reading in Arabicand it's one of my favorite books.And I also finished a very beautiful book called The SurrenderExperiment. I spend time alone. Um, I, uh, exercise. I try to practice mindfultechniques like yoga and meditation and journaling. Um, yeah, I think this iswhat I do mostly to preserve my mental health and to help me unwind. I playmusic, I think it's easy to forget yourself when you're an entrepreneur.Um, and, and, you know, your, your work becomes your life. Um,my kids now are grown. So my son is a university and my daughter graduates thisyear. So I have more free time. And so I, what I'm trying to focus on more isjust finding things that bring me joy. I think sometimes being an entrepreneur,you're stressed a lot.There's a lot of stress and your mind's always preoccupied. SoI try to find things that take me out of my mind. So whether it's meditation,exercise, playing music, reading, walking, spending time alone, I just try toget out of my mind and just to be in the moment, which is hard, but it'ssomething you need to constantly work on to, to stay balanced, to staybalanced. I think it's important to ask women how they balance between thedifferent roles they have. Um, I think we don't see in a way how much harder itis for women to be entrepreneurs when their mothers and their, you know, wivesand daughters and there are responsibilities socially on them that aredifferent, their expectations on them that are different from men.Um, as when I was fundraising, I was always asked weirdquestions like, are you planning to help our kids? You know, what are youroffice hours? I know men don't get asked these questions, so I think it'simportant to highlight that, uh, I guess on my email, uh, Rama at littlethinking minds com or through LinkedIn. A gift someone gave me that made an impact on my life. I thinkmy kids are a great gift to me and they're also great teachers. Um, teachersabout life and they teach me about myself. Um, and I think every time I failed,every challenge I had, every mess up I messed up has also been a gift.Yeah. Thank you, Annie. Thank you very Ali Zewail: Thank youfor listening to this episode of startups Arabia podcast. If there wassomething you really liked about what the guests said today, reach out to themon social media and tell them what you liked. And of course, if you haven'tsubscribed yet, what are you waiting for? You don't wanna miss any of our greatupcoming episodes.Also, please rate us and give us comments on our social mediaaccounts so that we know how to improve. And also tell us what you like. Wedon't mind hearing that either. Until next time, this was your host Addie'swhale.

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